SF BayLEAFs - e-NV200 Ride & Drives and Showcase May 28

[planet4ever]

Got back from our 43 day trip and found my Leaf would not start. Car was parked outside where the sun could hit the solar panel. The 12 volt battery measured less than 3 volts. After I charged the battery back to 12 volts, the Leaf has been working just fine. Had the car plugged into the Blink EVSE the whole time we were gone.

If you had left it unplugged from the EVSE, it would have been fine. I did a 45 day trip last year and simply left it unplugged in the garage and all was fine when I got back. It was at 6 bars when I left and 5 when I returned...

I think most of us agree with Tom on this. It's a design flaw that has been discussed in a number of threads. But Ted's experience is instructive. There has been some thought that the solar panel might provide enough electricity to make up for the fact that the high voltage to 12v converter doesn't ever run while plugged in. This test says the solar panel isn't even up to that; it's effectively useless.

Ray

 

[GRA]

Got back from our 43 day trip and found my Leaf would not start. Car was parked outside where the sun could hit the solar panel. The 12 volt battery measured less than 3 volts. After I charged the battery back to 12 volts, the Leaf has been working just fine. Had the car plugged into the Blink EVSE the whole time we were gone.

If you had left it unplugged from the EVSE, it would have been fine. I did a 45 day trip last year and simply left it unplugged in the garage and all was fine when I got back. It was at 6 bars when I left and 5 when I returned...

I think most of us agree with Tom on this. It's a design flaw that has been discussed in a number of threads. But Ted's experience is instructive. There has been some thought that the solar panel might provide enough electricity to make up for the fact that the high voltage to 12v converter doesn't ever run while plugged in. This test says the solar panel isn't even up to that; it's effectively useless.

Ray

At least at this time of year. I agree that it would be marginal at the best of times, but a late fall/early winter low sun is going to minimize charging on a horizontal module compared to between the equinoxes. Depends too on TEDMAC's latitude. But the main takeaway is that the best choice is to just leave the car unplugged.

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm not sure if you recall one of Phil's old posts. He took very detailed measurements there. It appears that the auxiliary battery had about 300 Wh of stored energy. The daily energy usage when the Leaf is left plugged in is between about 20 to 30 Wh.

TomT determined that the solar panel can deliver about 5 Watt peak output, measured in direct sunlight during Southern California summer. If you assume average power output to be 50% of peak, and about six hours of effective sunlight in winter, that's about 10 to 15 Wh daily output.

These are just rough estimates, but I think it's clear that there is an energy deficit, even when the Leaf is parked outside. While this new datapoint is certainly interesting, I think it's becoming clear that leaving the Leaf plugged in when going on vacation is a cardinal sin, one that is not to be repeated, lest you wanted wanted to keep your lead-acid battery dealer happy ;-)

 

[Phoenix]

I did not use the LEAF for three months. Followed the owner's manual and kept it at 8 bars when I left. LEAF was NOT plugged into EVSE or any trickle chargers. Came back to 7 bars. Car started up right away--no problems.

 

[Ingineer]

I did not use the LEAF for three months. Followed the owner's manual and kept it at 8 bars when I left. LEAF was NOT plugged into EVSE or any trickle chargers. Came back to 7 bars. Car started up right away--no problems.

The problem with this is that it's severely shortening the life of your 12V battery by deep-cycling it. I recommend disconnection at anything over 2-3 weeks.

-Phil

 

[gascant]

Minutes from the January 12th meeting can be found here:
http://sfbayleafs.org/past-events/2013/01/2013-leaf-bay-area-reveal/

 

[cdub]

If you had left it unplugged from the EVSE, it would have been fine. I did a 45 day trip last year and simply left it unplugged in the garage and all was fine when I got back. It was at 6 bars when I left and 5 when I returned...

This makes no sense. Doesn't Nissan (and Tesla) tell you to keep the car plugged in?

 

[Deleted member 3147]

If you had left it unplugged from the EVSE, it would have been fine. I did a 45 day trip last year and simply left it unplugged in the garage and all was fine when I got back. It was at 6 bars when I left and 5 when I returned...

This makes no sense. Doesn't Nissan (and Tesla) tell you to keep the car plugged in?

Nissan has a bug in their software! If it was working correctly, the DC-DC converter would still come on to charge the 12V battery, even if plugged in but not charging. It would also do it more often to compensate for the higher systems draw while plugged in. However, it has been confirmed that being plugged in, even if charging of only a second per day, prevents topping off of the 12V battery.

It's either a design oversight or a plain old bug. The big disappointment is that Nissan has not deployed a fix!

 

[TEDMAC]

The deep discharge that my Leaf 12 volt battery experienced during our 43 day trip does not seem to have killed the battery.
I know this is not something that lead acid batteries are not suppose to tolerate, but I have had no problems since recharging
the battery. I will leave my Leaf unplugged for our next long trip.

 

[surfingslovak]

The deep discharge that my Leaf 12 volt battery experienced during our 43 day trip does not seem to have killed the battery.
I know this is not something that lead acid batteries are not suppose to tolerate, but I have had no problems since recharging
the battery. I will leave my Leaf unplugged for our next long trip.

Good to hear, but it could be just a matter of time before the battery will need to be replaced. Please have a look at a related thread.

 

[Ingineer]

Nissan has a bug in their software! If it was working correctly, the DC-DC converter would still come on to charge the 12V battery, even if plugged in but not charging. It would also do it more often to compensate for the higher systems draw while plugged in. However, it has been confirmed that being plugged in, even if charging of only a second per day, prevents topping off of the 12V battery.

It's either a design oversight or a plain old bug. The big disappointment is that Nissan has not deployed a fix!

The 12V battery is charged anytime and everytime the main battery contactors are closed. This means anytime the car is ready, or anytime the car is charging. If the car is waiting to be charged (timer) or has completed a charge, then it will not keep the main contactors closed, and thus, the 12v will not charge. To compound this problem, the Leaf keeps certain systems alive if the charge connector is connected, so there is a much higher draw on the 12v battery. This is why it's a bad idea to leave the Leaf connected for an extended time.

There are many things Nissan could do to fix this problem, which they might have already fixed on the 2013. Since this is not a "critical" problem, I doubt they will fix our older cars even if they figure out a solution.

We have a simple solution to this problem, just leave it unplugged! For optimal traction battery storage, you want it closer to 50% SoC anyway, not 80%, and definitely not full!

Your 12v battery will be fine if you disconnect it or connect a battery tender.

Problem solved for those few times you will leave your Leaf for an extended time.

-Phil

 

[gascant]

Announcement of the February SF BayLEAFs meeting can be found here:
http://sfbayleafs.org/event/february-2013-meeting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Featured presentation from Renault on HMI studies for EV's, and overview of European effort on EV's.

 

[gascant]

Summary of the meeting held on February 9th can be found here:
http://sfbayleafs.org/past-events/2013/02/february-meeting-minutes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[gascant]

Announcement of the March SF BayLEAFs meeting can be found here:
http://sfbayleafs.org/event/march-2013-meeting/

 

[gascant]

Announcement for the April 13th meeting can be found here:
http://sfbayleafs.org/event/april-2013-sf-bayleafs-meeting/
New location--San Francisco Nissan/Infiniti on Van Ness.
Featuring a deep dive on the MY13 LEAF from a Nissan Product Engineer.

 

[GRA]

Yesterday, I noticed that the City of Hayward and/or Ecotality has installed 10 L2 Blink EVSEs (8 normal height, 2 shorter in Handicapped spots) for 11 parking spaces in the City Hall parking garage, in the same area as the current Blink L3. The L3 is along the east wall near the north end, the L2s stretch westward along the North Wall from the NE corner. This location is less than a block from the Hayward Main Library, which I believe has a meeting room available for use on Saturdays (at least when it isn't raining, when the Friends of the Library book sales moves inside and uses it); I'll check that out and report back. This would seem to be a good central bay location for a SF BayLEAFs meeting, a few miles from the east end of the San Mateo Bridge and near the junctions of 880/92 and 238/580.

The L2s are still blocked off, and aren't yet operational - while the pedestals have been installed, conduit needs to be run to bring power to them, then the spaces presumably need to be restriped, EV parking only signs etc. installed, and the final permits issued. Judging by how long it took for the L3 to go into service from this point, this may take 2 months or more from where they are now, although Hayward has subsequently installed a fair number of Chargepoint L2s elsewhere, so maybe the process runs faster now that they've got more experience.

 

[edatoakrun]

I was glad to finally meet some of you "Northern" California LEAFers in person, and thanks for the T shirt.

I got home ~7:45 last night, 690 miles in 5 days, with about 200 of those miles driven on DC (My LEAF's first 6 DC charges, at Calistoga, Concord, San Ramon, Fairfax, Petaluma (visitor center) and Santa Rosa, during the two days I was in the Bay area.

It was great to have my DC-capable LEAF fully operational for the first time in the ~2 years I've had it. It was quite a adjustment to have to modify my driving habits from constantly watching for tailgaters, to having to watch the speed limit signs and my speedometer!

My only day-time L2's on the entire trip were at SF Nissan and in Orland CA (Parkway RV park) where I spent ~9 hours for my two charge sessions, thinking about how nice it would be to have a few DCs on the ~350 miles between Sacramento/Vacaville and Ashland...

 

[OrientExpress]

It was great to meet you as well, and I am glad that you found the talk from Nissan on the insides of the 13' LEAF useful. I think you won the furthest distance traveled to a BayLEAFs meeting ever, so a T shirt was the least we could give you as a souvenir! This was one of our better meetings, and set the bar pretty high for our future get togethers!

I agree on your assessment that Northern California is still a QC Desert, but from what I have seen from those that are responsible for changing that, it won't be long before California will finally be connected with the Oregon and the Bay Area QC networks so that driving your LEAF from Ashland to San Jose in a reasonable amount of time will be routine. 2013/2014 will see great things happening with infrastructure in California.

I was glad to finally meet some of you "Northern" California LEAFers in person, and thanks for the T shirt.

I got home ~7:45 last night, 690 miles in 5 days, with about 200 of those miles driven on DC (My LEAF's first 6 DC charges, at Calistoga, Concord, San Ramon, Fairfax, Petaluma (visitor center) and Santa Rosa, during the two days I was in the Bay area.

It was great to have my DC-capable LEAF fully operational for the first time in the ~2 years I've had it. It was quite a adjustment to have to modify my driving habits from constantly watching for tailgaters, to having to watch the speed limit signs and my speedometer!

My only day-time L2's on the entire trip were at SF Nissan and in Orland CA (Parkway RV park) where I spent ~9 hours for my two charge sessions, thinking about how nice it would be to have a few DCs on the ~350 miles between Sacramento/Vacaville and Ashland...

 

[gascant]

Yesterday, I noticed that the City of Hayward and/or Ecotality has installed 10 L2 Blink EVSEs (8 normal height, 2 shorter in Handicapped spots) for 11 parking spaces in the City Hall parking garage, in the same area as the current Blink L3. The L3 is along the east wall near the north end, the L2s stretch westward along the North Wall from the NE corner. This location is less than a block from the Hayward Main Library, which I believe has a meeting room available for use on Saturdays (at least when it isn't raining, when the Friends of the Library book sales moves inside and uses it); I'll check that out and report back. This would seem to be a good central bay location for a SF BayLEAFs meeting, a few miles from the east end of the San Mateo Bridge and near the junctions of 880/92 and 238/580.

Yes, that would be a great location for a meeting, especially since we've had trouble securing places in the East Bay (though we have a standing invitation in Castro Valley). Let us know what you find. A meeting space that can comfortably hold 50 would work out well.

 

[gascant]

I was glad to finally meet some of you "Northern" California LEAFers in person, and thanks for the T shirt.

I got home ~7:45 last night, 690 miles in 5 days, with about 200 of those miles driven on DC (My LEAF's first 6 DC charges, at Calistoga, Concord, San Ramon, Fairfax, Petaluma (visitor center) and Santa Rosa, during the two days I was in the Bay area.

Thanks for making the trip down. It was good to meet you, too. Look for an email with instructions to join our list server.