Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
dsh said:
I agree..What a joke, Celebrate National Plug in Day, by telling LEAF owners their batteries are not losing Capacity on an accelerated pace...some support Nissan....NOT!


JeremyW said:
Tomorrow is going to be a very interesting day. :)

Correction: "by telling some LEAF owners their batteries are not losing capacity."

Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them. Bashing Nissan for having put the most successfull EV on the road on National Plug-in day, now that's an interesting perspective.
 
GroundLoop said:
The "Lease vs Own" split has to be the most prominent.
As a lease-holder, I'm pretty much tuned out.. content to see how the chips fall after three years and decide from there.

IF I was an owner, I'd be much more interested because it impacts the 'when do I sell' reasoning.
I learned my lesson on the Segway -- if you wait until the batteries show reduced capacity, nobody will buy it and you're left with an expensive "discard or spend-to-upgrade" decision.

I'm also puzzled because I'm pretty much the poster child for what NOT to do.. I charge to 100% every night, jackrabbit the thing at every green light, charge when it's only two bars down, etc, and I still have "5 stars" and 280 gids to work with.

I would care very little if I leased, except that the car will not take us nearly as far as before, so although it had been our exclusive weekend car, we now have to take the gas burner out at night after we've run our errands, unless I have time to drive to the QC about four miles from our house. You can imagine how connvenient that is, plus I cringe at the damage I'm doing to the battery that I own. I feel like charging the car is now considered abuse, even though they sold me a QC port.

As for trying to sell the car at some point, I'm guessing it's a rolling paperweight once I hit three bars of loss, which means I drive it until a better pack is available at a reduced price. I hope the car still gets my wife to work and back in two or three years. This whole issue sucks.
 
Yes, what the hell is the replacement cost for a Nissan Leaf Battery, with the old one traded in and how much to replace the modules? In the back of the 2011-leaf-service-maintenance-guide on pg. 32, there is a "Li-ion BATTERY REPLACEMENT RECORD." Can anyone tell us the cost of replacing the modules or the whole battery pack if Nissan is not going to cover it under their warranty???

thankyouOB said:
forgive if this is repetitive, as I didnt have time to read all 8 pages.

given what Nissan said in its letter and warranty material -- guaranteed loss of capacity over time -- would they please tell us what the replacement cost of the battery is?
some of us would want to keep the car because of its wonderful characteristics, but being limited to 80% of 75 miles in a daily commute -- largely freeway and some streets -- may mean we cannot use it in a couple of years for its primary purpose.
 
I agree...Jeff Kuhlman, we need to hear from Nissan 'HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM', or you are just wasting our time.


downeykp said:
Hawk0630 said:
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co. I enter the forum a bit intimidated. I used to be quite involved in EV and advanced technology matters many years ago when I headed Communications for GM’s Energy and Environmental issues and Advanced Technology activities. Then I had the great fortune to work with some great people in the business, people who were my co-workers and my mentors – Bob Purcell, Denny Minano, Jon Beresa, Byron McCormick, Erhard Schubert, and Chelsea Sexton among the many.

If you know those names and their careers at GM, then you know that it was many years ago that I was involved with EVs. Since then I mostly have been involved with luxury brands, including Cadillac, Saab and Audi. Late last year, I joined Nissan in my current position. I work and reside in Yokohama, Japan.

As I read through your posts, it’s clear that we have much work to do on the communications front. And as I read your posts, I realize that you’re asking for more than that. What I can do is serve as one of the bridges to Nissan. Andy Palmer, Executive Vice President of Nissan, asked me to personally lead the global EV communications effort. That direction is clear, no delegation.

Fortunately, there is a good team that I get to work with, some you know, some you may not know. Many of you on the west coast have met or are familiar with Tim Gallagher, he’s on the team. Katherine Zachary is also on the team. She is located in Nashville, and if you haven’t met her, you’ve probably read her quotes. Dave Reuter, head of communications for the Americas (everything from Canada south through South America) is also on the team. We also have members from Europe, and we have two folks from Japan who are in Communications and are close to the battery team and the vehicle team.

I believe that my responsibility, and that of this team, is to promote, defend and engage. First, we have been too silent on what Nissan is working on, what we think the future looks like, and what innovations are coming. Second, we also have not defended Nissan or the LEAF as well as we could have when others – competitors, the anti-EV groups, and the media – lobbed verbal attacks at our company, our product and our motivations. Finally, we have not talked to you as frequently and as transparently as was needed.

On the last issue, there has been a debate in our profession about whether or not to participate in enthusiast forums, such as mynissanleaf.com. Too often such efforts, while noble, came off as spin. So, companies typically monitor the forums and then answer issues through their owned social platforms, such as YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. We have all of that, but we’re willing to talk here if invited. After reading through the responses to yesterday’s letter I realize that the discussions will often be tough, but that’s part of being the face of any company or brand. So, tell me when we’re falling short of the three areas that I’ve outlined above. My commitment to you is to monitor frequently, comment often and bring Nissan people – executives, engineers, designer, technologists – to this forum.

To start, on Thursday we will have a chance to sit down and talk with Andy Palmer while at the Paris Motor Show. Andy has agreed to take questions and to answer them in a video that we will post no later than Friday. We will begin to solicit questions via our Facebook page. I invite you to send your questions.

From now on I’ll keep my posts shorter, but I thought it important to let you know a little about me and what I’m going to be working on as it concerns the Nissan LEAF. Thanks for “listening”.

So now I am confused. The last press release said that the battery degradation issues were under normal parameters. I would think that the people who are losing capacity bars would beg to differ.
Now out of the blue, after it really appears that Nissan is trying to spin this whole problem, this openness campaign ie spin session is supposed to make all of us feel warm and fuzzy. Sorry, but I do not buy it. The first step to righting a wrong is to admit that you have a problem. I have not seen that.
As I have also stated, if you lose those of us who went out on a limb on this faulty technology, then the movement is dead.
This is your chance to right this wrong. Don't blow it!!
 
Hawk0630 said:
As I read through your posts, it’s clear that we have much work to do on the communications front. And as I read your posts, I realize that you’re asking for more than that. What I can do is serve as one of the bridges to Nissan. Andy Palmer, Executive Vice President of Nissan, asked me to personally lead the global EV communications effort. That direction is clear, no delegation.

Welcome and grid your loins. My Leaf was delivered in April 2011. I started noticing a decrease in the range of the vehicle almost immediately. I first brought this to the attention of a dealer in September of 2011 because the ~70 mile 50/50 freeway/country lane journey for which I purchased this vehicle was not longer doable on a single 100% charge (It initially did it easily). The situation became worse during the "winter" months here in Northern California during which one memorable 80% charge took me the grand total of 38 miles.

I stopped posting on this site largely because none of the regulars here would believe me. Neither would Nissan. I gave up and sold the vehicle in May of this year, and considered myself lucky to have escaped with a minimum amount of money lost. That was however until I received a tax examination notice containing a bill with an amount in excess of $11,000. As for your car, it is still sitting at CarMax having been moved from lot to lot without much sales success.

Your attempt to placate the EV "community" by appointing a group of EV "experts," reeks of additional obfuscation.

I was originally a large fan of the Nissan Leaf. I've even visited your facility in Oppama twice (on my own dime, thanks). All I can say now is that had the Leaf performed in a manner even remotely resembling your promises, you wouldn't be here.
 
ericsf said:
Correction: "by telling some LEAF owners their batteries are not losing capacity."

Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them.
It's not a majority but it's easy for you to say when you live in SF and don't live in a hot climate area like AZ and TX. As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=228410&hilit=almaden#p228410" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, on a given day, it could be 68 F in SF and 98 F in the part of SJ where I live. That day, it hit 105 F in Phoenix per http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/phoenix-az/85003/july-weather/346935?monyr=7/1/2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Heck, their low temps are almost all significantly higher than the high temps SF sees during that time of year.

The % of AZ owners that we have reports (here) of capacity vs. the number that Nissan's said are in AZ is significant. I'm positive that there are more that have gone unreported.
 
cwerdna said:
ericsf said:
Correction: "by telling some LEAF owners their batteries are not losing capacity."

Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them.
It's not a majority but it's easy for you to say when you live in SF and don't live in a hot climate area like AZ and TX. As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=228410&hilit=almaden#p228410" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, on a given day, it could be 68 F in SF and 98 F in the part of SJ where I live. That day, it hit 105 F in Phoenix per http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/phoenix-az/85003/july-weather/346935?monyr=7/1/2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Heck, their low temps are almost all significantly higher than the high temps SF sees during that time of year.

The % of AZ owners that we have reports (here) of capacity vs. the number that Nissan's said are in AZ is significant. I'm positive that there are more that have gone unreported.

This isn't a hot versus temperate issue. We all drive the same car. A car that might work as advertised in a temperate climate. But it does not work in hotter climates. DESIGN FLAW no matter how you look at it.
 
ericsf said:
dsh said:
I agree..What a joke, Celebrate National Plug in Day, by telling LEAF owners their batteries are not losing Capacity on an accelerated pace...some support Nissan....NOT!


JeremyW said:
Tomorrow is going to be a very interesting day. :)

Correction: "by telling some LEAF owners their batteries are not losing capacity."

Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them. Bashing Nissan for having put the most successfull EV on the road on National Plug-in day, now that's an interesting perspective.

It's an interesting perspective when your cars is not worth the bad lithium put in it.
 
jspearman said:
As for trying to sell the car at some point, I'm guessing it's a rolling paperweight once I hit three bars of loss, which means I drive it until a better pack is available at a reduced price.
Depends. As I mentioned in another thread many of us spend $12-$16K and a lot of time doing a home conversion which ends up with around a 50 mile max range. Some people might be quite willing to spend that and more to get a used LEAF with a 50 mile or so range, assuming capacity loss does level off some. Of course I don't know if that's enough money to make it worth your while to sell it, but I see more potential value than a rolling paperweight.
 
Hawk0630 said:
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co. I enter the forum a bit intimidated.
You've taken on a fairly large task here, it may be more than a single person can keep up with. As you can tell there is a lot of pent up frustration. Hopefully you can clarify exactly what is happening, i.e. bad gauges, software, actual lost capacity, potential fixes, and future innovation. I've been a LEAF and Nissan supporter up until the recent incident, but at this point I can't recommend the LEAF until there is a better understanding of what is happening and what is being done about it.
 
JRP3 said:
Hawk0630 said:
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co. I enter the forum a bit intimidated.
You've taken on a fairly large task here, it may be more than a single person can keep up with. As you can tell there is a lot of pent up frustration. Hopefully you can clarify exactly what is happening, i.e. bad gauges, software, actual lost capacity, potential fixes, and future innovation. I've been a LEAF and Nissan supporter up until the recent incident, but at this point I can't recommend the LEAF until there is a better understanding of what is happening and what is being done about it.
Yep, unfortunately it's very possible that people will "scream" for attention from what is now an inroad into a high-level exec at Nissan and he'll find it impossible to address all questions/concerns in a timely manner.

That said, it's great to see any corporation join an enthusiast forum, though I absolutely, truly understand why many wouldn't (partly for the reason I just stated and partly because it comes off as spin).

I definitely welcome Hawk and anybody else of his ilk to share what they know, because Nissan does know more about these batteries than anybody here.
 
I would like to see Jeff, Andy, Mark and the whole gang come to Phoenix for a town hall on the issue. I know other areas have problems, but this is ground zero. We have easy airport access for any others who would like to come, and I would be more than happy to house at least one person in our casita.
 
Can someone provide the following numbers:

1- total number of U.S. Leaf sales to date?

2- number of Leaf owners in this forum?

Just wondering what percentage of the U.S. Leaf sales belong to this forum and determine percentage of reported Leaf owners w battery degradation. Wonder how many people not in this forum have degradation and have not noticed the bars or not aware of this potential issue.

Ian B

Don't know if mynissan leaf.com moderator/owner will provide this info.
 
ericsf said:
Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them.
The problem at hand isn't figuring out how bad having 100 affected cars is. The problem is that the issue is widely known and threatens the confidence of all owners and potential owners. Here's where the communication department comes in. Saying there is no problem hasn't worked. So, a new strategy is in order.
 
[/quote]
cwerdna said:
ericsf said:
Correction: "by telling some LEAF owners their batteries are not losing capacity."

Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them.
It's not a majority but it's easy for you to say when you live in SF and don't live in a hot climate area like AZ and TX. As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=228410&hilit=almaden#p228410" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, on a given day, it could be 68 F in SF and 98 F in the part of SJ where I live. That day, it hit 105 F in Phoenix per http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/phoenix-az/85003/july-weather/346935?monyr=7/1/2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Heck, their low temps are almost all significantly higher than the high temps SF sees during that time of year.

The % of AZ owners that we have reports (here) of capacity vs. the number that Nissan's said are in AZ is significant. I'm positive that there are more that have gone unreported.
I am not sure why it's bad for someone who lives in SF to write that the battery degradation issue is affecting less than 0.3% of the LEAFs sold to date. It's an observation. You can disagree with my numbers and my math but I don't see why where I live matters to the question at hand.
 
gbarry42 said:
ericsf said:
Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them.
The problem at hand isn't figuring out how bad having 100 affected cars is. The problem is that the issue is widely known and threatens the confidence of all owners and potential owners. Here's where the communication department comes in. Saying there is no problem hasn't worked. So, a new strategy is in order.
IMO, what threatens the confidence of owners and buyers is people throwing numbers and facts like they know the car better than Nissan. Only Nissan gets the data from all the cars through Carwings and really knows how widespread the problem is. They admitted that their data shows battery degradation which is on average is 4% faster in AZ than their estimate. On top of this they will privately discuss the condition of their car with each owner who has experienced higher than average degradation. I think this is better communication that your average corporation.

We have to get real here. There are millions of $ at stake in reseach and development in this new technology. We can't expect them to put their design and their data for the world to see just because some of us disagree with their numbers.

So far nobody else than Nissan has any statistically significant data which can show how fast the battery is degrading for all the owners. So until somebody comes up with a scientific analysis (verifiable and reproducible) of a large sample of LEAFs battery I'll take Nissan word.
 
ericsf said:
Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority.
It's already been explained to death that the 80+ reported on this forum for having lost capacity bars can't be compared to the 28000 LEAFs sold. If you're doing math like this, obviously you don't know anything about statistics because you're mixing apples with oranges. The 100 must be compared against the number of forum members, not against every single LEAF owners regardless of whether they participate on the forum or not.

If you take the issue from the angle of lost capacity bars due to being in hot weather states, the 100 then should be compared to an even more reduced number of forum members from hot weather states only, which is even a smaller sample still.
 
ericsf said:
gbarry42 said:
ericsf said:
Less than 100 of 28000 is nowhere near a significant number nor a majority - moreover all of them.
The problem at hand isn't figuring out how bad having 100 affected cars is. The problem is that the issue is widely known and threatens the confidence of all owners and potential owners. Here's where the communication department comes in. Saying there is no problem hasn't worked. So, a new strategy is in order.
IMO, what threatens the confidence of owners and buyers is people throwing numbers and facts like they know the car better than Nissan.
I beg to differ and I would contend that AZ owners know their LEAF range better than Nissan because AZ owners have had to live with that limitation every day for the last several months and Nissan don't. If Nissan think they know those cars' ranges better than their owners do, and Nissan think those batteries are normal, then why not just swap a new normal battery for the old "normal" battery?

ericsf said:
So until somebody comes up with a scientific analysis (verifiable and reproducible) of a large sample of LEAFs battery I'll take Nissan word.
If you believe Nissan's words that the problem is so insignificant (100/28K), then why don't Nissan go ahead and stand by their customers and make it right to the insignificant number of people who are affected? Instead of letting this insignificance fester all these months and rot the whole apple?

If you don't believe that AZ LEAF owners are truly affected by range because you believe in Nissan saying it's normal, why don't you trade your car with an AZ LEAF cars?
 
azdre said:
If Nissan were paying attention to my concerns, they would have known that range loss is it. As you've heard from me here, it doesn't matter how many kWhs you can shove in the battery, it's about how far you can drive the car. My range loss does not track with capacity loss. Maybe in July I had only lost 15% capacity, but the range my car could travel had dropped about 25%. This is an important question. With a 70-80% degradation, what is the expected impact on the EPA range?

I think the EPA should be involved in the discussion to think about modifying their test procedures to publish vehicle range on degraded packs. Also, they should include in their testing how far you can go before the instruments tell you to find a charge. The 73 mile estimate is to turtle, so about 10 of those miles are listed on the dash as '---'. Then, if 100% is really frowned upon, take another 20% off and you've got a car with a 49 mile range when new.

As of a week ago I could go to the Nissan page and indicate a 60 mile daily commute and it would tell me the LEAF is perfect for me. There are still stories being posted about salesmen in hot climates telling a buyer in Austin, not to worry, if the pack degrades, we just swap out a problem module and it's all better. Nissan continues to market to sell cars regardless of whether the car is right for the buyer.

How cool would it have been if Nissan could have reinvented the distribution channel? Build out one really cool dealer in the middle of the city, where you can see the car inside and out, where the salesman doesn't work on commission, where there are just a few enthusiastic, well-paid, well-informed people who can and will tell the full truth about the car.

Hi, I am one of those Austin buyers. We were told that if the battery was truly defective and that if it lost capacity too fast (not the normal lithium ion capacity loss) then that was under warranty. We were also told that the "modules" could be replaced so that you are not just replacing the entire battery pack. Is this not a correct statement?

If we drive around 30 miles a day and charge to 80% every day or every other day I will lose capacity even in the first year? I have only owned mine for about 3 weeks due to wanting to get the word out and putting my money where my mouth is. I know that it is still early for the newer technologies and there will be bugs and issues to work out. I only hope that Nissan if there truly is a issue will do the right thing and fix the issues so that more people will become EV buyers. People are finally interested and I hate to see another who killed the electric car documentary.

I do recommend nissan cars. I had an ICE Altima in the past and a Stanza both were very good cars. I hope that even though this is brand new technology and Nissan is doing the usual PR to not scare away new buyers that they truly are trying to figure out what is going on behind the scenes. I guess we will see.
 
Back
Top