One more winter range post- 33*, 80% to 0 bars: 32.8 miles

[amtoro]

Does anyone who had their LEAF 4 or 5 months ago remember with certainty the battery temperature gauge level immediately after a 100% charge? I will log mine throughout the winter here in the south and maybe someone in a very cold place (there is at least one scandinavian and a good bunch of canadians in this forum) can log theirs.

We need to log the results in the same conditions leaving ambient temperature the only independent variable. So, we need to report the initial SOC, how many bars are lit on the gauge (although this is not very accurate) and the ambient temperature immediately after a L2 charge to 100% and having let the car cool down before initiating the charge so the result is not affected by the already high temperature of the pack immediately after discharge.

Maybe we can recruit some floridians too?

Moderator... should we open a new thread for this subject?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

The car is not absolutely silent, but it's darn close to it. it's road noise is nothing compared to other cars I've driven. If you listen closely with the windows down and stereo off, you can hear a high pitched wine of the electric motor. I couldn't figure out what the testing was referring to until I drove the car along side a jersey barrier with the windows down, then I could finally understand what was being talked about. the idea that someone would be left with ringing ears from that makes me think they tested a car that was abnormal in some way, it's just not imaginable to me. I would hope that someone who is very sensitive to high pitched frequency would test drive any car and make sure it meets their liking. I do have a sensitivity to certain high pitched frequencies, like the sound of the magnetic balasts of some florescent tube lights, that drives me nuts, but I've experienced nothing bothersome in the Leaf.

<snip>

Some folks are doing even better, but keep in mind we are a 4 person family with 2 adults and 2 kids in the car much of the time and we live in a hilly area.

George, have any of you, especially your kids, noticed or been bothered by the high-frequency whine between about 45-55 reported by CR and Motor Trend? The Motor Trend writer said he and his family all had a high-frequency ringing in their ears after a long trip, and the audio spectrograph photos in the magazine of all three cars (Prius/Volt/Leaf) clearly showed the noise bands he was referring to:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1108_2011_chevrolet_volt_vs_2011_nissan_leaf_vs_2011_toyota_prius_comparison/viewall.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't notice a problem when I test drove the car but I have essentially zero hearing left above 2kHz, and didn't spend much time in the 45-55 speed range in any case.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Does anyone who had their LEAF 4 or 5 months ago remember with certainty the battery temperature gauge level immediately after a 100% charge? I will log mine throughout the winter here in the south and maybe someone in a very cold place (there is at least one scandinavian and a good bunch of canadians in this forum) can log theirs.

We need to log the results in the same conditions leaving ambient temperature the only independent variable. So, we need to report the initial SOC, how many bars are lit on the gauge (although this is not very accurate) and the ambient temperature immediately after a L2 charge to 100% and having let the car cool down before initiating the charge so the result is not affected by the already high temperature of the pack immediately after discharge.

Maybe we can recruit some floridians too?

Moderator... should we open a new thread for this subject?

I believe the max I saw was 6 bars, ever. mostly 5 and now mostly 4. I wouldn't get too hung up on thinking you can find an absolute empirical way to analyze this, those temperature bars are very broad, giving little definitive information. Before and after a 100% QC the other day, the dash showed 5 bars. it was my first QC, I was almost hoping for something more substantial, thinking the heat would be good for a 73 mile return trip at highway speeds in the mid 30's. Surely the batteries heated up, but you couldn't tell anything from that temperature indicator... wish it showed in numbers.

 

[ebill3]

I just opened a file with Nissan and they will try to research it with the engineers and keep the information for future reference.

The question is:
The recommended charging regime for maximum battery life is 80% all the time, mainly due to the heat produced during the las 20% of charging. Timing the charging session to end 60 to 30 minutes before departure time would allow to have a warmer battery at the start of the morning commute, but would it help the range, or still be detrimental to the battery to charge to 100% during winter months?

Let's see what they can answer

The official answer from Engineering at Nissan is that as the cells in the battery will reach the same temperature in summer or winter when charging to 100% regardless of the ambient temperature, therefore, the degradation will be the same. It is still recommended to charge to 80% for longer battery life.

It seems that the recommendation would be to use the end timer to finish charging 30 to 60 minutes before starting the drive, this will have the advantage of having a warm battery with less internal resistance that a cold battery (and less losses due to it) and giving the battery a prudent time to equalize before discharging.

Yes, 80% charge will help prolong battery life, but not because of high temperatures at 100%. A 16 Amp charge is a really gentle charge. The culprit is the high SOC.

I, as are others, having difficulty understanding why ambient temperature has no effect on charged battery temperature.

Bill

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The official answer from Engineering at Nissan is that as the cells in the battery will reach the same temperature in summer or winter when charging to 100% regardless of the ambient temperature, therefore, the degradation will be the same. It is still recommended to charge to 80% for longer battery life.

It seems that the recommendation would be to use the end timer to finish charging 30 to 60 minutes before starting the drive, this will have the advantage of having a warm battery with less internal resistance that a cold battery (and less losses due to it) and giving the battery a prudent time to equalize before discharging.

no...no....no... sorry dont believe that. so you are going to tell me that my battery capacity is now permanently 17.25 Kw?? because that is all i am getting out of the battery right now that temps are hovering in the mid 20's and up?


the 2nd part of your statement is valid. one of the things that does enhance degradation is sitting at 100%. now how long before it becomes detrimental is the real question we need to ask. so you think it should be no more than an hour? if so, i will have to start setting a timer because i frequently finish charging by 1 am, sometimes even earlier.

 

[abasile]

George, have any of you, especially your kids, noticed or been bothered by the high-frequency whine between about 45-55 reported by CR and Motor Trend? The Motor Trend writer said he and his family all had a high-frequency ringing in their ears after a long trip ...

There definitely is a high-frequency whine, and everyone in our family has noticed it, as a large percentage of our driving has been at speeds ranging from 45 mph to 55 mph. The whine is noticeable at other speeds as well. That said, it isn't that loud, especially compared to road noise, and it hasn't at all bothered any of us. I actually think it's kind of cool to faintly hear the whine of the electric motor. I am frankly quite surprised that anyone would experience ringing in their ears as a result of it. Seems like a non-issue to me.

 

[GRA]

George, have any of you, especially your kids, noticed or been bothered by the high-frequency whine between about 45-55 reported by CR and Motor Trend? The Motor Trend writer said he and his family all had a high-frequency ringing in their ears after a long trip ...

There definitely is a high-frequency whine, and everyone in our family has noticed it, as a large percentage of our driving has been at speeds ranging from 45 mph to 55 mph. The whine is noticeable at other speeds as well. That said, it isn't that loud, especially compared to road noise, and it hasn't at all bothered any of us. I actually think it's kind of cool to faintly hear the whine of the electric motor. I am frankly quite surprised that anyone would experience ringing in their ears as a result of it. Seems like a non-issue to me.

Thanks to you and George for your replies. As I wear hearing aids now and often turn them off while driving, I suspect it would be a non-issue for me as well. OTOH, I know just how fatiguing NVH can be (from flying), and a friend who's hearing has always been far more acute than mine would undoubtedly be bothered by it. If it bothers you, it bothers you.

The MT writer did say that the only reason he thought the noise could be heard was because Nissan had done such a good job of suppressing all the usual noises. The car certainly seemed quiet when I drove it, but since I've owned Subarus for twenty-odd years now that's no surprise - until the most recent generation, Subarus lacked window frames on the doors, and I've always hypothesized that the windows are sucked out slightly at high speeds by a slightly lower pressure generated by the local air flow. Whatever causes it, they've always had a lot of wind noise.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i can hear it easily when there is no audio on and that is the only time. its very quite and unobtrusive to me but i rarely am in the car without radio, Pandora or something going

 

[TonyWilliams]

The official answer from Engineering at Nissan is that as the cells in the battery will reach the same temperature in summer or winter when charging to 100% regardless of the ambient temperature, therefore, the degradation will be the same.

If this statement is an accurate reflection from Nissan, then I'll just include that with my LEAF oil change recommendation and coupons from Nissan, and the ICE warnings in the owner's manual, and don't fast charge more than once per day in the purchase contract, etc.

Total BS.

 

[surfingslovak]

The official answer from Engineering at Nissan is that as the cells in the battery will reach the same temperature in summer or winter when charging to 100% regardless of the ambient temperature, therefore, the degradation will be the same.

If this statement is an accurate reflection from Nissan, then I'll just include that with my LEAF oil change recommendation and coupons from Nissan, and the ICE warnings in the owner's manual, and don't fast charge more than once per day in the purchase contract, etc.

Total BS.

+1

I'm under the impression that L2 charging raises battery temperature by about 10 to 15 F, and L3 charging by 25 to 30 F. For comparison, driving on the freeway at 60 mph for more than 15 minutes warms the pack by about 5 to 10 F.

Although anecdotal and inaccurate, all of these values are relative to ambient temperature, and that's why I'm mentioning it at all. I wonder if the Nissan quote amtoro mentioned was from their support team, which reportedly did not have access to the Leaf and had zero hands-on experience with it.

 

[mark13]

I guess we are all learning about what winter driving does to our mileage estimates..I do a 60 mile round trip drive to work that I have done hundreds of times in the Leaf...We had a cold spell in Phx that ate up my mileage so bad I had to take out the emergency charger and charge at work..Make sure you have a 3 prong grounded extension cord or the charger will not work..

Normally doing the summer I can do my work trips twice on one charge..It will not happen doing the winter

 

[Rokeby]

Holy range anxiety Batman!

Just how cold was it when you saw this reduction?

I don't own an EV yet -- considering LEAF or iMiev -- and a cold
weather range reduction like you report -- what? 60-75% --
would be a no-go for me.

 

[ebill3]

I guess we are all learning about what winter driving does to our mileage estimates..I do a 60 mile round trip drive to work that I have done hundreds of times in the Leaf...We had a cold spell in Phx that ate up my mileage so bad I had to take out the emergency charger and charge at work..Make sure you have a 3 prong grounded extension cord or the charger will not work..

Normally doing the summer I can do my work trips twice on one charge..It will not happen doing the winter

You mean that during the summer you routinely make two 60 mile trips, a total of 120 miles, on one charge? I'm envious. What is your normal speed?

Bill

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Holy range anxiety Batman!

Just how cold was it when you saw this reduction?

I don't own an EV yet -- considering LEAF or iMiev -- and a cold
weather range reduction like you report -- what? 60-75% --
would be a no-go for me.

its more like "up to 25%" . to illustrate. we should have access to about 21 Kwh. i did two trips both going to near turtle mode and only had access to about 17 kwh (based on miles/kw reading and distance traveled that day) with temps in low 30's. in both instances, i was probably less than 3 miles from "crawling" along

 

[Rokeby]

its more like "up to 25%" . to illustrate. we should have access to about 21 Kwh.
i did two trips both going to near turtle mode and only had access to about
17 kwh (based on miles/kw reading and distance traveled that day) with temps
in low 30's. in both instances, i was probably less than 3 miles from "crawling"
along

Dave,

perhaps I've had too much coquito, Puerto Rican coconut based eggnog,
tonight.

I don't understand what you mean by the underlined portion above.

Could you be a bit more specific?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

its more like "up to 25%" . to illustrate. we should have access to about 21 Kwh.
i did two trips both going to near turtle mode and only had access to about
17 kwh (based on miles/kw reading and distance traveled that day) with temps
in low 30's. in both instances, i was probably less than 3 miles from "crawling"
along

Dave,

perhaps I've had too much coquito, Puerto Rican coconut based eggnog,
tonight.

I don't understand what you mean by the underlined portion above.

Could you be a bit more specific?

aka "turtle mode"

 

[mitch672]

I have been reading this thread with great interest, and I jut have to make a comment, this is something I heard "Jack Rickard" (who is well known to EV conversion specialists, as the lovable character who hosts a weekly 2 hour show in http://www.evtv.me" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):

"forget what you've been told and heard about batteries, and lithium batteries, they are NOT electrical devices, like capacitors or integrated circuits, they are CHEMICAL devices, that reflect all the laws of physics, tempature is extremely important, as colder tempatures slow down the chemical reactions for storage (charging) and discharging. Don't ever forget that"

Of course your total KwH capacity is going to be reduced by colder tempatures, and your range, there's no way around this, it's the laws of physics. Even battery pack warmer's can only help so much.... Remember, it's chemical storage of electrons.

 

[Yanquetino]

I guess we are all learning about what winter driving does to our mileage estimates..I do a 60 mile round trip drive to work that I have done hundreds of times in the Leaf...We had a cold spell in Phx that ate up my mileage so bad I had to take out the emergency charger and charge at work.

I am also in the desert, close to your northern border, and we get similar "cold" spells during the winter. I am nonetheless surprised that you couldn't get 60 miles out of your Leaf without plugging in at work. Did you (1) charge to 100% and (2) pre-heat the cabin before leaving for work? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I am guessing that those two variables might make a significant difference in your "cold" weather range.

 

[highcountryrider]

Main electric vehicle concern is range, and cold weather affects it

 

[defiancecp]

"Last winter, tests on the Mitsubishi i-Miev showed that at temperatures of -7 degrees Celsius, the i-Miev’s range was decreased by up to 20%. At -18 degrees Celcius, the range would be reduced by 40%, with an additional loss of about 15% if the cabin heater was on the maximum setting."

That is consistent with my experience so far.

Also, to supplement my earlier discussion about the feet/windshield mode instead of defog, I finally did have a day where it couldn't keep up. However, by switching to defog for about 15 seconds, then switching back, it would clear the window and hold it clear for a good 5 minutes. So *almost*good enough, and good enough to seriously reduce defog requirements even then.