Official Tesla Model S thread

[TonyWilliams]

That's it. Folks show up and pay the fees, and with our well over 1000 paid charge events, it can/does make money. The next question is how long will the charger last, but assuming ten years, it will do just fine.

I wish you the best with your efforts!

Since these are sourced by three-phase AC, the energy storage (capacitor) requirements should be minimized, but only automobile-level manufacturing quality power electronics at that power level tend to have long warranties. Do you mind me asking how long your warranties are on these units?

We will have chargers from more than one manufacturer in the future, so there isn't one warranty. But, for the few glitches we have had, we were 100% taken care of. Sorry, can't disclose the particulars of the warranty.

 

[edatoakrun]

Interesting story of one S 60 owners quest for range, and what the different options would cost.

He decided to "Swap out the 60-kWh battery in (his) car for a new 85-kWh battery".

A recent 1,200-mile East Coast road trip in my 2013 Tesla Model S electric car proved to be something of a turning point in my view of the car.

Fitted with the smaller 60-kilowatt-hour battery pack, my car's EPA range of 208 miles was not quite enough to make it between Superchargers--Tesla's proprietary ultra-fast DC charging stations--at normal Interstate speeds in cold weather...


The way I saw it, there were three possible ways to upgrade my 60-kWh car to an 85-kWh version.
•Swap out the 60-kWh battery in my car for a new 85-kWh battery
•Trade in my car for a new 85-kWh model
•Trade in my car for a similarly-equipped used 85-kWh Model S, of roughly the same age/mileage as mine...


breakdown

The cost breakdown looked like this: Price of the new battery was $44,564. The trade-in value of my old battery was $29,681--a number arrived at by discounting its new list price of $37,102 by a 20-percent "restocking" fee.

I had hoped that the trade-in value of my old battery would be prorated for its actual use--10 months and 11,000 miles out of its guaranteed life of eight years and 125,000 miles. This would have amounted to about a 10-percent "restocking fee" rather than the actual 20 percent

But Tesla needs to make a profit on this transaction; I understand that.

The net cost to me of the new battery was $14,883. Adding five hours of labor ($600), minor parts ($125), the battery shipping cost ($1,520), and sales tax ($1,257) brought the grand total to $18,386...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089183_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-upgrade-from-60-kwh-to-85-kwh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GeekEV]

Wow, I'm surprised they actually did that... Makes me wonder what it would take to turn my 60 into a P60.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Isn't it like a $10k option to begin with? Looks like about an $8k mistake to not get it in the first place.

 

[edatoakrun]

Isn't it like a $10k option to begin with? Looks like about an $8k mistake to not get it in the first place.

Actually, most of the additional cost seems to be due to Tesla's rather aggressive (IMO) assessment of the cost for the OE battery's depreciation/degradation.

...The cost breakdown looked like this: Price of the new battery was $44,564. The trade-in value of my old battery was $29,681--a number arrived at by discounting its new list price of $37,102 by a 20-percent "restocking" fee.

I had hoped that the trade-in value of my old battery would be prorated for its actual use--10 months and 11,000 miles out of its guaranteed life of eight years and 125,000 miles. This would have amounted to about a 10-percent "restocking fee" rather than the actual 20 percent...

If Tesla maintains this trade-in pricing formula, looks like it may be very expensive for any S owner, 60 kWh or 85 kwh to maintain their S's "new" range as the battery degrades.

But at least Tesla is quoting a price...

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ Maybe, but what are they going to do with it? Who is going to want a used 60kwh pack? They can't put it in a new car. It will probably sit around somewhere until they have a some used car in their inventory that needs a replacement, or maybe make a customer some deal on it.

 

[edatoakrun]

^ Maybe, but what are they going to do with it? Who is going to want a used 60kwh pack? They can't put it in a new car. It will probably sit around somewhere until they have a some used car in their inventory that needs a replacement, or maybe make a customer some deal on it.

The Tesla battery pack design, (unfortunately, IMO) does mean that the "trade-in" market for batteries will probably be rather limited.

But I'd think any insurance company would be happy to save a few bucks on the claim when an S needs a partial or complete replacement battery...

I am pleased that a market for new/used LEAF batteries may be developing (with no contribution by Nissan) at prices reflecting values for both new and used modules, for LEAF owners and others.

="drees" Looks like you can buy used modules (58 Ah measured on 4.2V-2.8V discharge at 20A) for $109/ea or new modules for $125/ea. Half a pack available for $2,160 / $2,450 respectively, or $4,320 / $4,900 for a full pack respectively.

On eBay from seller hybrid.parts:
http://r.ebay.com/ZLyOFx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - The new modules
http://r.ebay.com/11mgc7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - The used modules

Their web site:
http://hybridautocenter.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like they're in Vegas. Hope they're storing those cells in an air conditioned space and at nominal voltage!

It appears that they are pulling the used modules from salvaged cars. I'm _very_ curious as to where they are getting the new modules from. They claim to be able to get both MY'11-12 and MY'13 style modules.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13406&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GeekEV]

^ Maybe, but what are they going to do with it? Who is going to want a used 60kwh pack? They can't put it in a new car. It will probably sit around somewhere until they have a some used car in their inventory that needs a replacement, or maybe make a customer some deal on it.

If and when they ever get built, they could be used in the battery swap stations. Or power storage at the superchargers...

 

[Zythryn]

^ Maybe, but what are they going to do with it? Who is going to want a used 60kwh pack? They can't put it in a new car. It will probably sit around somewhere until they have a some used car in their inventory that needs a replacement, or maybe make a customer some deal on it.

Three ideas pop to mind.
First, the pack could be used to provide buffering at their solar panel equipped superchargers. I know they announced one such station was already in operation at the end of last spring.
They could also use some of the modules for their residential solar installs/home power backup systems- http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Both of those systems don't require an automotive level of charge/discharge levels so are much more forgiving.

They could also disassemble the pack and test the individual modules or even cells to refurbish the pack. However, I doubt they could get it back to performing like new, so I would guess one of the first two options.

 

[JeremyW]

Or power storage at the superchargers...

I have a feeling this is where that pack is headed...

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

... Also, just because there have been a bunch of truly dreadful CHAdeMO chargers deployed with equally poorly designed and clunky plugs doesn't mean the CHAdeMO standard is flawed...

I hope you are right but my experience with CHAdeMO vs Tesla has me thinking otherwise. no matter how robust the manufacturing of a given CHAdeMO plug is, there is the fundamental reality it takes a certain amount of finesse for the user to use CHAdeMO and even after using them for over 2 years, it still takes me some effort to get the latch to take and the plunger/lever to work right. there is too much stuff to line up so people tend to get frustrated and overwork it and I think that is why they fail so much... it's a lot to expect of the general public. I would love to be wrong on this one, given that we have so many in the ground up here, but I fear that in the long run the standard will get abandoned, requiring a huge capital expense for whoever owns them at that point to swap them out with something new. I would maintain that Tesla has the simpler approach, more user friendly and likely to hold up better long term.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I now firmly believe that larger batteries are more vital than lots of car chargers all over the place.

That is easy to say when each Model S that is sold is enough money to pay for a LEAF + QC station installed - but a single QC station serves a lot more than one vehicle.

Throwing tons of battery is one way to solve the problem, but certainly not the most cost effective.

And you still need charging stations all over the place regardless since inevitably you are going to end up somewhere that you need to charge.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see the model S as practical for the masses. I see it as a bleeding edge example of what's to come: cheap, big battery packs. a large battery pack solves a lot of different issues:

- batteries last the longest when cycled more in the mid pack range and ideally when kept at around 50% SOC. having a large battery pack for occasional long distance trips allows you to keep it at 50% and still have plenty to spare, even in the cold, and of course you can always top up if needed.

- larger battery packs have more buffer for varying weather conditions and terrain. rain, cold, elevation, wind drag all can take a big bite out of range, and predicting the effect of all those variables is tricky and beyond the main stream car buyer. a larger pack allows for a more even distribution of effects over a longer period of time, reducing the need to try and calculate it all out as you go.

- range anxiety is probably one of the main deterrents for mass adoption of EV's. While I have become very adept at estimating the exact range of the leaf down to the mile in a variety of conditions, I never was able to eliminate the stress that being that vigilant required. the mainstream world is just simply not going to put up with that stress no matter how irrational it seems to many of us. larger batteries erase that stress with a large buffer. In the Tesla, I rarely ever think about it's range, while in the Leaf it's the main thing I monitor.

- with a large battery, there is almost no need to charge publicly. I got really tired of having to wait around for the Leaf to charge when we were trying to use it for everything. there is a lot of idealization that goes on in the minds of enthusiasts, including me, about how productive that time can be. Even where stations are located near shopping malls, I found myself gradually getting tired of walking around "shopping" when I was actually just watching the clock and trying to stay warm in a store near a charger. large batteries dramatically reduce the time one has to spend "shopping" at a place you wouldn't normally go. Ideally, a properly matched battery allows a driver to almost never have to charge at a charging station during their daily routines.

I would not be surprised if the sweet spot for EV batteries turns out to be close to or even in excess of that of the range of a gas car. If you knew me and where I began with EV's just a few years ago, you'd understand how ironic that is coming from me.

 

[GregH]

breakdown

The cost breakdown looked like this: Price of the new battery was $44,564. The trade-in value of my old battery was $29,681--a number arrived at by discounting its new list price of $37,102 by a 20-percent "restocking" fee.

Interesting.. So a new replacement pack for a Tesla is
$44,564 for 85kWh ($524/kWh).. *24=$12.5k for a Leaf size pack
or
$37,102 for 60kWh ($618/kWh).. *24=$14.8k for a Leaf size pack

Hmmm.. so if a new replacement Leaf pack cost $12k-$15k, I wonder how many would opt for a $100/mo lease instead?

 

[KJD]

breakdown
The cost breakdown looked like this: Price of the new battery was $44,564. The trade-in value of my old battery was $29,681--a number arrived at by discounting its new list price of $37,102 by a 20-percent "restocking" fee.

Interesting.. So a new replacement pack for a Tesla is
$44,564 for 85kWh ($524/kWh).. *24=$12.5k for a Leaf size pack
or
$37,102 for 60kWh ($618/kWh).. *24=$14.8k for a Leaf size pack
Hmmm.. so if a new replacement Leaf pack cost $12k-$15k, I wonder how many would opt for a $100/mo lease instead?

I do not think either one of those options is very good. I plan to take that 15k and add it to the Tesla savings account.

 

[N952JL]

I now firmly believe that larger batteries are more vital than lots of car chargers all over the place.

That is easy to say when each Model S that is sold is enough money to pay for a LEAF + QC station installed - but a single QC station serves a lot more than one vehicle.

Throwing tons of battery is one way to solve the problem, but certainly not the most cost effective.

And you still need charging stations all over the place regardless since inevitably you are going to end up somewhere that you need to charge.

I disagree. Larger batteries are more vital! Of course his statement about sizing the battery to fit the job is the most correct. If you can only have one car, big battery is a must. Even with L3 charging, you drive one hour and charge 30 mins before you can continue with your next 45 min drive. To drive from Warner Robins to Atlanta would go from a 2 hr (with traffic) drive to three hrs and arrive with an empty battery. To be main stream a BEV needs to be a 300 mile EPA range. You can offer smaller ones to fit the mission but for main stream 300 needs to be offered.

 

[GregH]

To be main stream a BEV needs to be a 300 mile EPA range. You can offer smaller ones to fit the mission but for main stream 300 needs to be offered.

uhmn.. Sounds like you're talking about a gasoline vehicle..
I have one vehicle (Leaf) and it takes care of 98% of my driving. For the other 2% I'll rent a car. Someday when Chademo is more ubiquitous that figure may drop to 1% or 0.5%.
Yeah, having 100-120 miles of range would be nice... but like I said before I think much more than that is a real waste.
Granted if we could have bigger (kWh) batteries that didn't weigh more then I wouldn't mind so much carrying around the extra kWh for that extra 1% that I might need it.
I'm sure the Tesla battery is more energy dense, but the Leaf battery is over 600lb. I would lug around another 400lb to get 100-120 miles of range, but beyond that it's getting rather obnoxious. I don't think we'd be doing the world (or our wallets) much good driving around EV tanks that get 2.5-3mi/kWh but can go >200 miles on a charge. Heck if you really want an electric vehicle that's that inefficient, get a hydrogen fuel cell car.

 

[abasile]

Yeah, having 100-120 miles of range would be nice... but like I said before I think much more than that is a real waste.

I understand what you are saying, as for the majority of people the LEAF can cover most of their driving "needs", and 100-120 miles of range would cover even more "needs". However, no one truly needs a car. One can always move to an urbanized area where everything is accessible by public transportation, walking, or biking. Or get a horse. ;-)

At least in the utilitarian sense, we drive cars because they bring convenience and flexibility to our lives. We can live in the area of our choice, find the best possible work, travel anywhere we choose, and save time compared to other forms of ground transportation.

There is no doubt that having a driving range of 200+ miles (what Tesla indicates is the minimum to avoid being "crippled", which I agree with) makes for considerably more convenience and flexibility for a great many drivers than LEAF-like range. Much of society, my family included, likes to be able to take quick trips to the beach, city, mountains, resorts, desert, etc. etc. on short notice. More importantly, we sometimes need to make last-minute trips to see friends or family, or for work purposes. I don't consider it a "waste" to have a car that can keep up with one's life while at the same time seeking to minimize harmful emissions. As long as one can truly afford it, of course.

 

[ebill3]

There is no doubt that having a driving range of 200+ miles (what Tesla indicates is the minimum to avoid being "crippled", which I agree with) makes for considerably more convenience and flexibility for a great many drivers than LEAF-like range. Much of society, my family included, likes to be able to take quick trips to the beach, city, mountains, resorts, desert, etc. etc. on short notice. More importantly, we sometimes need to make last-minute trips to see friends or family, or for work purposes. I don't consider it a "waste" to have a car that can keep up with one's life while at the same time seeking to minimize harmful emissions. As long as one can truly afford it, of course.

Amen - well said.

While we normally do not need the range of our 85 kWh Tesla, it certainly is nice to know we can, and often do, hop in it for a trip to the other side of the state, the Oregon coast, or even a lunch location that would cause a bit of anxiety in the LEAF. Especially true in the winter - we like to be comfortable with out constantly monitoring the energy usage.

 

[N952JL]

To be main stream a BEV needs to be a 300 mile EPA range. You can offer smaller ones to fit the mission but for main stream 300 needs to be offered.

uhmn.. Sounds like you're talking about a gasoline vehicle..
I have one vehicle (Leaf) and it takes care of 98% of my driving. For the other 2% I'll rent a car. Someday when Chademo is more ubiquitous that figure may drop to 1% or 0.5%.
Yeah, having 100-120 miles of range would be nice... but like I said before I think much more than that is a real waste.
Granted if we could have bigger (kWh) batteries that didn't weigh more then I wouldn't mind so much carrying around the extra kWh for that extra 1% that I might need it.
I'm sure the Tesla battery is more energy dense, but the Leaf battery is over 600lb. I would lug around another 400lb to get 100-120 miles of range, but beyond that it's getting rather obnoxious. I don't think we'd be doing the world (or our wallets) much good driving around EV tanks that get 2.5-3mi/kWh but can go >200 miles on a charge. Heck if you really want an electric vehicle that's that inefficient, get a hydrogen fuel cell car.

I understand. Here in Warner Robins my Leaf handles 98% of all my trips. It is really nice, but on a yearly basic it only handles about 70% or less of my yearly miles driven. I'm just under 14,000 miles in two years. But I average another 5,000 to 6,000 miles for those other 2% of my trips. I would like very much to go to Atlanta more often for shopping and entertainment or just to catch an airplane. Who wants to go for a night on the town knowing it will cost an additional 75.00 plus to rent a car for the weekend. Add to that the hassel of picking one up, dropping it back off and the time taken for filling out all the paperwork. Don't get me wrong the leaf fits my everyday needs very well. But it doesn't fit any out of town trip. Even with chargers.

 

[N952JL]

Yeah, having 100-120 miles of range would be nice... but like I said before I think much more than that is a real waste.

I understand what you are saying, as for the majority of people the LEAF can cover most of their driving "needs", and 100-120 miles of range would cover even more "needs". However, no one truly needs a car. One can always move to an urbanized area where everything is accessible by public transportation, walking, or biking. Or get a horse. ;-)

Cars were allowed into New York to reduce pollution. Yep you guessed it. They wanted to get rid of the horses to reduce pollution.