Official Hyundai Ioniq 5 topic

[GRA]

Replacing/expelling heat built up while parked is a different matter, and in that situation cracking the rear windows makes sense, but that's short-term at the start of a drive, not continuous for hours. And of course I use a reflective sunshield and park facing south when there's no shade.

It is the same matter -- the total energy used for cooling for a trip. And it is almost always true, except for very long trips, that the lion's share of A/C work is related to removing the heat accumulated while parked when the windows are closed and the sun is not blocked, not the heat that enters the cabin while driving. On average, cars in the USA are driven about an hour a day, and sit for about 11 hours a day. Using A/C to dispel the heat from 11 hours a day while parked is the much larger problem.

Uh huh, and since virtually all my driving trips are long to very long, and the car is often parked at altitudes where the ambient temp is reasonable, most of the time just opening the rear hatch and doors while I'm loading the car after whatever activity I've been doing is enough to let any accumulated heat out, assuming I haven't been able to park in the shade. Having worked in solar I'm far more aware of the sun position and height, both current and progressing through the day, than the average person, so I park and shade accordingly.

Another way to estimate the A/C work during driving that is not related to dispelling retained heat is this:
Estimate glass as 1 meter*meter facing the sun, and average sun inclination at 45 degrees
Radiation is 1000 watts per metermeter facing normal to the sun*
So average heat entering the cabin through the glass is about 700 watts.
Presuming a COP of 3, about 200 -- 250 Wh of electrical energy used per hour for steady state A/C

Call it one mile of EV range spent per hour for A/C

Given modern, more efficient A/C systems I agree the difference is minimal, but then that's the point of doing the experiment, to see how minimal. As it happens I was able to charge at short enough intervals that it didn't matter (with either of the two cars I drove; I'm renting a 2022 Niro the middle of this month to drive on the same route, and we'll see how I do with its shorter range). BTW, it really bugs me that Hyundai decided not to offer the solar roof in the U.S., when it could handle all the sunny day hotel loads in summer, and depending on your latitude winter as well, plus allow you to replenish the battery during the day while it sits at the trailhead when you're out skiing, if you'd slept in it the night before and were using utility mode or heat. BEV range is especially impacted by heater use even with a heat pump, so their decision makes zero sense to me.

 

[SageBrush]

Uh huh, and since virtually all my driving trips are long to very long, and the car is often parked at altitudes where the ambient temp is reasonable, most of the time just opening the rear hatch and doors while I'm loading the car after whatever activity I've been doing is enough to let any accumulated heat out

The accumulated heat is far, far greater than what is present in the air in the cabin.

 

[GRA]

Uh huh, and since virtually all my driving trips are long to very long, and the car is often parked at altitudes where the ambient temp is reasonable, most of the time just opening the rear hatch and doors while I'm loading the car after whatever activity I've been doing is enough to let any accumulated heat out

The accumulated heat is far, far greater than what is present in the air in the cabin.

See the EV6 results (using A/C all the way when needed) for comparison. Writing it now, so hopefully done this afternoon. Update Now posted here: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=625032#p625032

 

[WetEV]

Given modern, more efficient A/C systems I agree the difference is minimal, but then that's the point of doing the experiment, to see how minimal. As it happens I was able to charge at short enough intervals that it didn't matter

Without controlling more important variables like speed, using the AC or not, is a tiny difference can't be seen.

Again, a LEAF is drawing 25 kW at 75 MPH, and speeding up or slowing down by 1 MPH is about 1 kW more or less.

Unless the air speed is controlled to less than +- 1 MPH, you will never notice the difference between the AC on or off. A few MPH of wind is larger.

Likewise heated/vented seats, charging your phone, turning on the radio, and so on. They are just too tiny of energy uses to notice beside the elephant of speed.

Now, if you like the AC off, hey, turn it off. Like the radio off, hey, turn it off. Just don't pretend you are getting any noticeably better economy by doing so. You are not.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Let's not get carried away. Turning the A/C off while leaving the windows closed and the blower at the same speed will increase range/economy by a modest mile or two for a typical trip. Not a big deal - unless that extra mile is where your driveway is located...

 

[WetEV]

Let's not get carried away. Turning the A/C off while leaving the windows closed and the blower at the same speed will increase range/economy by a modest mile or two for a typical trip. Not a big deal - unless that extra mile is where your driveway is located...

Agreed, to a point. Cutting things that close is either a big bother or a big anxiety.

If you carefully plan everything including picking a day with the exact weather you need, carefully monitor the state of the car and everything else during the drive, you can drive well past the stated range and use the last Wh in the battery as you pull into the driveway. If doing this kind of manic compulsive drive, then turning off the AC might well be part of this. A big bother.


If you drive off somewhere and were relying on a single charging station to get home, and a semi truck just ran over it, then you might need every trick in the book to get home without a tow truck. Including turning off the AC. A big anxiety.

 

[GRA]

Let's not get carried away. Turning the A/C off while leaving the windows closed and the blower at the same speed will increase range/economy by a modest mile or two for a typical trip. Not a big deal - unless that extra mile is where your driveway is located...

It seems to be a bit more than that. Thanks to heavy traffic at the time of day I was driving, speed was limited so HVAC use made up a bigger % of the total. The fact is that the shorter-ranged (54 mi. combined) and less efficient Ioniq 5 still used 2% less capacity from home to Buck Meadows than the EV6 in essentially identical driving and climate conditions.

By contrast, descending the 12 miles/3,160' from Tioga Pass to Lee Vining coasting and regenning most of the way with neither car using A/C, they each gained 3% SoC. The air's a lot less dense up there, so the drag component's reduced considerably, plus the speed was generally under 65, often well under.

While I was able to drive 75 briefly on the way up, most of my cruising was well below that, and there was even some stop and go (both trips), plus you have reduced speeds through the parts of 3 towns you drive through on this route along with very limited speed on Old Priest Grade. That's why driving 126 miles on the most recent trip took 2:59 (i.e. averaging 42 mph), where driving at night I'd do it in 2:15-2:30. But I'd have no need to use A/C while night driving.

 

[SageBrush]

^^ I see that after a couple of rentals you are an expert, similar to WetEV's expertise about DC chargers in the USA after one trip and a handful of charging stops.

You have no way to know that the wind was *exactly* the same on your trips of different days, and it is an easy bet it was not. So your conclusions about efficiency between the cars is ... shall we say, suspect.

 

[GRA]

^^ I see that after a couple of rentals you are an expert, similar to WetEV's expertise about DC chargers in the USA after one trip and a handful of charging stops.

You have no way to know that the wind was *exactly* the same on your trips of different days, and it is an easy bet it was not. So your conclusions about efficiency between the cars is ... shall we say, suspect.

I never said it was exactly the same - how could it be outside of a dead calm? I said it was close enough as not to be significant. Nor am I claiming to be an expert, I'm reporting my results and my conclusions for anyone who wishes to use them.

As for efficiency between the cars, we know from EPA and other instrumented tests that the EV6 RWD is significantly more efficient than the Ioniq 5 AWD (or the EV6 AWD and to a lesser extent the Ioniq 5 RWD), so when despite that the Ioniq 5 AWD uses less energy to do the same trip in essentially the same conditions despite having to raise a couple of hundred extra lb. 2,900 ft., the evidence seems pretty conclusive to me. It's a relatively small difference, and for this and many other trips it will be irrelevant, but for some it won't. The Niro will be cutting things a bit closer, so I'll see what I want to do when I do the trip in that car a couple of weeks from now.

 

[SageBrush]

I never said it was exactly the same

Your memory is failing. From a few hours ago:

from home to Buck Meadows than the EV6 in essentially identical driving and climate conditions.

I'm curious. Can you estimate the Wh/mile increase from a 3 mph headwind ? You know -- a wind that you cannot see or practically notice.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Do ev6 and ionic5 use the 2 cycle or 5 cycle epa test? I belive Niro is 2 cycle.

 

[WetEV]

I never said it was exactly the same

Your memory is failing. From a few hours ago:

from home to Buck Meadows than the EV6 in essentially identical driving and climate conditions.

I'm curious. Can you estimate the Wh/mile increase from a 3 mph headwind ? You know -- a wind that you cannot see or practically notice.

That's something a long term EV driver would think about.

And someone that has rented an EV a few times wouldn't.

 

[WetEV]

an expert, similar to WetEV's expertise about DC chargers in the USA after one trip and a handful of charging stops.

I've got dozen's of overnight or longer trips involving public charging. About 100 DC and maybe 50 public L2's while traveling.

Only about 56 DC stops were with the etron. You must have a bigger hand than me.

How many times have you used public charging? How many with an etron?

 

[SageBrush]

[youtube][/youtube]

Do ev6 and ionic5 use the 2 cycle or 5 cycle epa test? I belive Niro is 2 cycle.

That is a very good question. The only way I know to find the answer is to read through the CSI.
FWIW, I find both the 2 cycle and 5 cycle amalgamated results to be fairly useless since driving does not happen in an amalgamated summer+winter.

I want the summer test and the winter test reported separately

 

[GRA]

I never said it was exactly the same

Your memory is failing. From a few hours ago:

from home to Buck Meadows than the EV6 in essentially identical driving and climate conditions.

I'm curious. Can you estimate the Wh/mile increase from a 3 mph headwind ? You know -- a wind that you cannot see or practically notice.

Nothing wrong with my memory, I said "essentially", not "exactly", i.e. within modest variation on a trip I've done hundreds of times (but only twice in a BEV). As I said the difference in energy used was fairly small, but I consider it large enough to be significant despite the minor weather differences, given the large efficiency difference (21% greater EPA combined range for the EV6, probably an even greater difference for HWY range) between the two cars, which should have been more than enough to overwhelm the extra energy use of A/C if the difference were trivial.

If you don't consider it significant, you can ignore it. Personally, having run the numbers I think it might just be enough in some conditions to be the difference between making it the 194 miles/9,800' climb from home to Tioga Pass or not un-recharged, with my required reserve. As noted, on the 12 mile/3,160' descent from Tioga Pass to Lee Vining I will normally gain charge, and at worst won't lose any.

Not that I'd attempt this until there's an FC in Lee Vining, and both these cars charge fast enough that I don't mind too much having to make an FC charging stop enroute, but it doesn't hurt to consider future developments.

I'll be taking a Niro on the same route tomorrow, but the weather's considerably (probably 15-20 deg.) cooler and I'll likely have a stronger and less variable tailwind, different enough to the conditions I had with its larger siblings that I wouldn't consider the results comparable in the real world.

 

[WetEV]

Here is a hint.

Rather than worrying about running the AC, find out about the winds first.

Try this for starters:

https://www.windy.com/

Remember that at 75 MPH, a 1 MPH difference in wind speed is as much as running the AC or not.

 

[GRA]

Here is a hint.

Rather than worrying about running the AC, find out about the winds first.

Try this for starters:

https://www.windy.com/

Remember that at 75 MPH, a 1 MPH difference in wind speed is as much as running the AC or not.

Again, very little of the trip up was at 75 mph, in fact I only would have hit that during a couple of passes and a brief period on I-205. Traffic was heavy and most of the trip up was at 60 or less, often well less. That's the main reason I hate driving up during the day.

Unfortunately, given the current reservation system just to drive through the park between 6-4 (and the convoying through the one-lane road section at speeds well below the 45 mph limit until 5), I need to be at the entrance as close after 4 p.m. as possible if I want to get to the east side at a halfway reasonable hour.

 

[WetEV]

Again,

Again it looks like a mink hole.

 

[SageBrush]

Again, very little of the trip up was at 75 mph,

Then figure out the effect of a 2 mph wind when driving 60. Or 65, Or 70
Specifically, have a clue

When you wrote 'essentially identical conditions,' you were saying that the energy consumption difference could be attributed to A/C. @WetEV and I are telling you that very minor wind differences, of the amount that you could not detect, may have been the cause of the difference.

This does not have to be a complicated point, if you would stop the rhetorical debating and just learn a little basic physics.

 

[GRA]

Again, very little of the trip up was at 75 mph,

Then figure out the effect of a 2 mph wind when driving 60. Or 65, Or 70
Specifically, have a clue

When you wrote 'essentially identical conditions,' you were saying that the energy consumption difference could be attributed to A/C. @WetEV and I are telling you that very minor wind differences, of the amount that you could not detect, may have been the cause of the difference.

This does not have to be a complicated point, if you would stop the rhetorical debating and just learn a little basic physics.

As it happens, the cars' GoMs agree with me. on the range effects of AC. I'm writing a review which I'll post in the Kia Niro EV topic in a bit, as I rented a Niro EV last week and drove it on the same route.