Official California PG&E Thread

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Spies said:
LEAFer said:
Or was it TED, The Energy Detective ?
I suppose that did sound kinda vague. Thanks LEAFer but no it was not TED. At first I thought you were talking about Technology Entertainment and Design.

Anyway the document I am thinking of had diagrams of deploying smart meters for time of use billing by PG&E for electric car use. This way a smart meter could be installed right at the EVSE and used to only meter EV charging and allow the rest of the home to be metered separately by just subtracting what the EV used. This could avoid the costs of installing two meters at the service entrance and running a separate line to the EVSE. It would also allow someone like me to choose the E-9 Rate B (EV only) instead of the E-9 Rate A (whole house) I have now because of install restrictions.

I saw an internal powerpoint pdf from PG&E (googled it somehow) which described the possibility of using a second smartmeter for the EV, and subtracting its reading from the main meter. I think the doc was from this calendar year. The subtraction approach was listed as one of several possibilities, but with the drawback of requiring additional infrastructure work (i.e. subtraction). Didn't sound like a solution was near. You can always call their Clean Air Hotline guy (Adam) to find out what's going on at the retail level.
 
Here is a San Jose Mercury News article which discusses EV charging at home (and why PG&E wants permits or at least notification), and briefly mentions the possibility of new rates for December:

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_15977162?source=rss&nclick_check=1
 
DeaneG said:
Here is a San Jose Mercury News article which discusses EV charging at home (and why PG&E wants permits or at least notification), and briefly mentions the possibility of new rates for December:

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_15977162?source=rss&nclick_check=1

I love reading the comment section.....how may people believe that California gets their electricity from coal plus all the other FUD.
 
For those of you outside the Bay Area, PG&E just polished its sterling reputation by blowing up or burning up about three dozen houses and killing four people in San Bruno with a leaky gas main. I won't bother to post a link to the spectacular TV footage, but the ghouls out there can find it easily enough on the Internet.
 
Rat said:
For those of you outside the Bay Area, PG&E just polished its sterling reputation by blowing up or burning up about three dozen houses and killing four people in San Bruno with a leaky gas main. I won't bother to post a link to the spectacular TV footage, but the ghouls out there can find it easily enough on the Internet.

Oh - its been all over the news - so everyone knows.

Just another piece of how badly mauled our infrastructure is. tax cut = poor infrastructure.
 
evnow said:
Just another piece of how badly mauled our infrastructure is. tax cut = poor infrastructure.
Just to be fair - PG&E is solely responsible for electricity/gas infrastructure - it's all paid for by the customers - so it doesn't have anything to do with taxes. It has to do with PG&E's business practices and regulations imposed on them by the government. So unless tax cuts lead to fewer regulations in this case - they have nothing to do with the recent catastrophe.
 
drees said:
Just to be fair - PG&E is solely responsible for electricity/gas infrastructure - it's all paid for by the customers - so it doesn't have anything to do with taxes. It has to do with PG&E's business practices and regulations imposed on them by the government. So unless tax cuts lead to fewer regulations in this case - they have nothing to do with the recent catastrophe.

True - not in this case. More to do with bridge collapses of the past and yet to come ...

Though, the utility deregulation that led to enron and related fraud did hurt quite a few utilities financially.
 
So the rate reality is now hitting me after speaking with Adam, the hotline guy. I have two choices: bad and worse, or maybe a third. I thought TOU metering would lower our bills, but it looks like just the opposite will be true.

First, contrary to what has been posted here, he said I could stay on E1 if I want, which is probably the cheapest for me as it turns out. He seemed very sure of this. Exact quote, "No one will ever force you to move off E1."

Second as for E9A, my normal daytime (peak) rate will jump almost threefold and that will be the bulk of our usage, which is outrageous. We are already slightly over our baseline, and he said that would mean it would be very expensive to stay on E9A in that case. I am not sure why we are over the baseline as we do not have A/C, got rid of our pool with all its pumps, and are usually very careful about turning off lights, waiting for the dishwasher to be full before running, etc., and there are only two of us. Maybe our baseline is very low for some reason, or maybe our usage is higher than I thought because we are home during the day, on the computer, fixing lunch, cooking, etc.

Third, E9B requires not just a second meter, but a second panel, he said. That's where I am confused and clearly not a happy camper. I would think that technically they could install some sort of meter in the garage directly on the circuit that will be used for the EV, not at or before a breaker panel. I assume that if they (i.e. whomever I hire) put in a second panel they would have to run wire to my garage, which is over a 100 ft. wire run through low and difficult attic space, which could cost thousands. The AV quote was $3501 due mainly to this wire run distance. The thing is, there is already a GFI 120V 30A circuit running to there from my current panel and I am staying on Lev 1 charging at least at first. Can they just hook up the current wiring to the new panel instead of rewiring? If so, that shouldn't be too expensive. The new panel could be right next to or above the old panel near the main meter and drop. Second, are you allowed to plug in other things to the circuit that has the E9B rate? The water softener and everything else in the garage is on that same circuit. If that rate is strictly for the EV, then I'm wondering how PG&E would ever meter Level 1 since anything could be plugged into that socket. It's an ordinary socket. You could charge up some battery, capacitor or storage device (pump water up to a tank?) at night and then use that stored energy during the peak hours of day, so I assume they have some sort of restriction. Assuming PG&E allows anything else to use that E9B rated socket, then I have yet another problem, which is how to get my daytime use needs in the garage (like the washer/dryer) onto the regular E1 rate applicable to the rest of the house.

Can anyone answer these questions?

I'll have to work some numbers and read the rate descriptions in detail, but it looks to me like staying on E1 will likely be the cheapest, ironically.
 
Do you have solar? I'm still on E1 but I have a pretty large solar 7.6 AC system would hopefully offset what I use during the day. Unfortunately our smart meter, if you can call it that, does not record our usage hour by hour, so there is no way to telling.
 
Ready2plugin said:
Do you have solar? I'm still on E1 but I have a pretty large solar 7.6 AC system would hopefully offset what I use during the day. Unfortunately our smart meter, if you can call it that, does not record our usage hour by hour, so there is no way to telling.


You have 7.6 kw of solar and you are on E1, why? Do you have very high consumption?
 
Ready2plugin said:
Do you have solar? I'm still on E1 but I have a pretty large solar 7.6 AC system would hopefully offset what I use during the day. Unfortunately our smart meter, if you can call it that, does not record our usage hour by hour, so there is no way to telling.
No solar. After studying the rates in more detail, it looks like the peak rate periods are more limited than I thought. The part peak rates are lower than my current E1 rate, so I think E9A is the way to go. We don't have A/C, which is the killer during peak hours. The oven & range are the only really high-usage items we have to use during peak regularly, and maybe the refrigerator. I think TOU will work for the whole house. I'll try E1 for awhile and then go to E9A and compare.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Ready2plugin said:
Do you have solar? I'm still on E1 but I have a pretty large solar 7.6 AC system would hopefully offset what I use during the day. Unfortunately our smart meter, if you can call it that, does not record our usage hour by hour, so there is no way to telling.


You have 7.6 kw of solar and you are on E1, why? Do you have very high consumption?

Yes, we have a 2300 square foot house with hot tub and pool along with two daughters and a lot of laundry. We also have some pretty bad shading in the winter, so I'm expecting to still have about a $600-700 total charge for the the year (it was around $4,200). I had it installed last November, so I'm not yet at 12 months. The solar company's recommendation was that I stay on E1, but I've been checking with some others and think that I probably should switch. I had a 8/31 order day on the Leaf, so I should be getting the car in December, so I'll probably change then. Any recommendations on which plan?
 
Rat said:
I am not sure why we are over the baseline as we do not have A/C, got rid of our pool with all its pumps, and are usually very careful about turning off lights, waiting for the dishwasher to be full before running, etc., and there are only two of us. Maybe our baseline is very low for some reason, or maybe our usage is higher than I thought because we are home during the day, on the computer, fixing lunch, cooking, etc.
What's your baseline allotment?

For every kWh you use a month, that is an average of 1.4W the whole month. 100 kWh is an average of 140 W.

For example, your typical fridge will use 1.5-2 kWh/day or a constant 60-85W.

A computer can use anywhere from 40W (very efficient) to 200+W (power hog) when on.

Get a Kill-a-Watt and plug it in to various things. You'd be surprised at how quickly your loads add up.
 
Rat said:
First, contrary to what has been posted here, he said I could stay on E1 if I want, which is probably the cheapest for me as it turns out. He seemed very sure of this. Exact quote, "No one will ever force you to move off E1."
Although my reading of the tariffs still says you have to go to E9, all the reports I've seen here of contact with PG&E indicate they have no intention of enforcing that. I may go to E9 just because I'm a squeaky-clean law-abiding citizen, and because it won't be much different from my current E6. But for people like you and me using L1 charging it seems like it should be a non-issue.

Rat said:
Second as for E9A, my normal daytime (peak) rate will jump almost threefold and that will be the bulk of our usage, which is outrageous. We are already slightly over our baseline, and he said that would mean it would be very expensive to stay on E9A in that case.
It is true that the worst case for E9 (tier 1 peak rate in the summer) is nearly three times as high at the E1 rate. But that only applies 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, 26 weeks a year, i.e. 910 hours out of 61,326. If you are not using an air conditioner (amazingly laudable in Fresno) surely the "bulk" of your usage can't be in those 910 hours. Especially since I'd guess about half of your usage comes in Nov - April when there are no peak hours.

Rat said:
Third, E9B requires not just a second meter, but a second panel, he said. That's where I am confused and clearly not a happy camper. I would think that technically they could install some sort of meter in the garage directly on the circuit that will be used for the EV, not at or before a breaker panel. I assume that if they (i.e. whomever I hire) put in a second panel they would have to run wire to my garage, which is over a 100 ft. wire run through low and difficult attic space, which could cost thousands. The AV quote was $3501 due mainly to this wire run distance. The thing is, there is already a GFI 120V 30A circuit running to there from my current panel and I am staying on Lev 1 charging at least at first.
Oh, this is just crazy. Run a 240v feed to the house, and only one leg of it is ever used, and that continuously at 15A for many hours late every night? Your neighborhood transformer is going to love that!

Rat said:
are you allowed to plug in other things to the circuit that has the E9B rate? The water softener and everything else in the garage is on that same circuit. If that rate is strictly for the EV, then I'm wondering how PG&E would ever meter Level 1 since anything could be plugged into that socket.
Not allowed.

Rate B: Applies to all applicable customers with a separately metered BEV or PHEV, recharging outlet or NGV home refueling appliance.
i.e. that meter and its one circuit can be used only for the above purpose. I'll bet no one even thought of the possibility that might be a 120v circuit.

Rat said:
I'll have to work some numbers and read the rate descriptions in detail, but it looks to me like staying on E1 will likely be the cheapest, ironically.
Given your situation, that may be true, but do think it through. If you are just over baseline now, then the LEAF is likely to push you into tier 3 unless you put really low miles on it or your house is all-electric. You need to look at the LEAF as the load at the margin, i.e. as if you were paying highest tier prices for its electricity. So at tier 3 you would be paying 28c/kWh on E1, but only 14c/kWh on E9A. (In each case, on only the amount of electricity over 130% of baseline.) If you only edge into tier 3, most of your LEAF charging will be at 13.5c on E1 but only 5.6c on E9! (averaging summer and winter)

As for your existing usage, figure that at tier 1, and you can see you would be paying slightly less on E9 in the winter, but more in the summer (depending on weekday 2-9 PM usage). So E9 is quite a bit better for the LEAF and somewhat worse for the house. Where the scales balance depends on what fraction of your total usage will be for the LEAF.
 
Am I missing something about EV charging rates for Pacific Gas & Electric?

According to my reading of their rate structure, they offer a special "experimental rate" for EV owners for nighttime charging at around 50% of the lowest TOU rate for that period (about $.05-.065 per kW according to my understanding).

For those of us with decent sized solar arrays on our homes, TOU rates almost always are better, IMHO, than the standard rate pattern for "normal customers." I get credit from PG&E all through the midday at peak rate charges since we are not home then, and our house is only 2.5 years old (thus pretty much state of the art in insulation, etc.). Here in Sacramento, we can simply open up the house at night and cool it down to around 68 degrees, close it up in the morning and it will still be 69 degrees downstairs and 71-73 degrees upstairs on any day under 98 degrees outside (and we have ZERO outside shading). Our solar panel system is 25 220w Sunpower panels, and it is producing real output yesterday of 29kW while our house "load" for those 24 hours was about 17kW. For the last 12 months our panels produced 1200 kW MORE than we actually used (absolute contribution to the PG&E grid) and our cash value "credit" for that excess with the TOU balanced charge computation was $438.

Hence even with charging two (2) EVs (we are getting both the LEAF in December and the VOLT in November), we will still be at ZERO actual use charge from our "wonderful utility company." Even before the San Bruno disaster I put PG&E among the "dark forces" in the universe.

And we also have a solar hot water system which has cut our gas bill for the year by about 50% (we are still using a central gas heating system in the colder months).
 
GeorgeParrott said:
Am I missing something about EV charging rates for Pacific Gas & Electric?...

I think the main differences between your situation and that of many others are that (1) you have solar panels installed, and (2) many of us can't get by without daytime (peak hours) AC usage.

A perspective on solar: the system with the shortest payback period is a 0kW (no) system. The system with longest payback period (and largest payback amount) furnishes most of your total electricity usage.

My solar is going in today, furnishing about 70% of my total usage. The remaining tier 1 power is priced competitively by PG&E, no need for me to add enough PV to offset everything.
 
GeorgeParrott said:
Here in Sacramento, we can simply open up the house at night and cool it down to around 68 degrees, close it up in the morning and it will still be 69 degrees downstairs and 71-73 degrees upstairs on any day under 98 degrees outside (and we have ZERO outside shading).
Nice - my 1974 house heats up like an oven in the summer - and because of my ceilings it's not easy to add insulation.

GeorgeParrott said:
And we also have a solar hot water system which has cut our gas bill for the year by about 50% (we are still using a central gas heating system in the colder months).
Since you have so much excess generation, you might look into one of those hybrid water heaters (has a heat-pump built in - or there's a company that makes a heat-pump retrofit kit) and a heat-pump to heat your home. Though with your house being so well insulated, I doubt you use much gas if you have a 90%+ efficient furnace. How many therms/mo do you typically use in the summer and winter?
 
GeorgeParrott said:
Am I missing something about EV charging rates for Pacific Gas & Electric?

According to my reading of their rate structure, they offer a special "experimental rate" for EV owners for nighttime charging at around 50% of the lowest TOU rate for that period (about $.05-.065 per kW according to my understanding).

For those of us with decent sized solar arrays on our homes, TOU rates almost always are better, IMHO, than the standard rate pattern for "normal customers."
No, I don't think you are missing anything. That "experimental rate" is the E9 (A or B) I was referring to, and you do get 7 hours a night at those super-low rates so long as your total usage doesn't go beyond tier 2. The problem "rat" has is that E9-B (separate meter) makes no sense for him, he doesn't have PV solar (so he is likely to go into tier 3), and he is hoping to get along on L1 charging (so 7 hours a night may not be enough).

Your basic conclusion is right, George. I do have a solar panels supplying 60-65% of my electricity, and there is no way I would want to go back to flat rate E1 billing, even though I too expect to only have L1 charging at home.
 
I went ahead and ordered E9A. We'll see how it goes. So far no word from PG&E about when it will be installed but another Leaf buyer I know has already changed his house over to that rate. I don't think he has his first bill yet, though. If the meter isn't installed before 11/1 I won't be subject to peak rates until May. I am currently only slightly into Tier 2. If I can stay under Tier 3 I'll be saving money on the whole house even before I get the Leaf delivered. Off peak even Tier 3 rates are barely higher than my regular rate now, so I don't see how I can lose. I don't expect to have trouble recharging off peak, but we'll see. If I find that to be a problem, I can probably switch with my wife on days when I plan to go more than 20 miles, as she almost never drives that far.
 
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