NYT says EV not worth it. Leaf = Versa

[thankyouOB]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/business/energy-environment/for-hybrid-and-electric-cars-to-pay-off-owners-must-wait.html?_r=1&hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

more butt ugly from folks who dont get it.
versa and more.

Except for two hybrids, the Prius and Lincoln MKZ, and the diesel-powered Volkswagen Jetta TDI, the added cost of the fuel-efficient technologies is so high that it would take the average driver many years — in some cases more than a decade — to save money over comparable new models with conventional internal-combustion engines.

That is true at today’s pump prices, around $4, and also if gas were to climb to $5 a gallon, the data shows.

Gas would have to approach $8 a gallon before many of the cars could be expected to pay off in the six years an average person owns a car.

 

[thankyouOB]

does the versa have:
-backup camera
-bluetooth and handsfree phone
-navigation
-phone control of heat
-voice activation of nav and phone
-ace handling and low center of gravity
-jack rabbit starts
-rig for silent running
-$7500 federal rebate
-HOV access
-$2500 state rebate or free sales tax in some states
-smart tire gauges that talk to you when you fill

and is totally cool

 

[kmp647]

since when do cars "pay you back"
all cars are expenses , liabilities, depreciating assets, require maintenance and fuel, some more than others

given that logic , why would anyone by anthing other than a versa or an escort
BMW? Mercedes , Porsche? WHY why not just get an econo box.
why do these cars exist........


if we applied that requirement to all technology we would be in caves

 

[thankyouOB]

have some fun,
post a comment at NYT.

my favorite one reminds us that, even if it were true that the cost differential takes years, the extra money goes to a car manufacturer not oil companies.

 

[rmay635703]

have some fun,
post a comment at NYT.

my favorite one reminds us that, even if it were true that the cost differential takes years, the extra money goes to a car manufacturer not oil companies.

I own a 1981 Comutacar EV, its been on the road at least 25 years of its life. It cost me $4000 to buy & restore which I recovered in one year of operation. ($4 gas back then)

There is no oil to change, no radiator and its aluminum and will never rust.

Not all EVs cost so much.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

already been there. i figured a "comparable" car will run $22-24,000.

take mine at $34,000 minus $7500 tax credit minus $3000 sales tax NOT paid and i have basically a $24,000 car. take off discounts no longer available and i have a $27,000 car.

i am currently saving $100 a month driving EV OVER A 48 MPG PRIUS so your savings will vary. this is probably a worst case scenario (not to mention the Prius was MORE money than the Leaf)

now, last year for the whole year, i only saved $700 so just over $50 a month. gas is expected to go up another 20-30 cents.

but say we go back to "pretending" we are comparing another small car that we "could" get at $22,000 plus $2000 sales tax so it would be $24,000 (assuming other fees are equal like destination, etc)

so if i am saving $100 a month now, about $50-58 a month last year. lets say i could "expect to save $80 a month or even better $83.33 a month or an even $1000 a year so it would take 4 years to get to the point of that $2,000 car plus tax...

BUT, i did not pay that much so i am already saving money EVERY SINGLE FRICKING MILE over any other new car purchase.

now, i could have just kept my 2006 Prius. after all, it only had like 60,000 miles on it or so, so could have gone several more years, but one thing you cant put a value on and that is the experience of driving electric.

i recently changed jobs which requires me to drive between 3 different locations (car salesman) and i drive on average 2-5 different cars every day. some are...Drove an Audi Q5 yesterday. pretty sweet ride (waaay out of my price range, btw) but one thing i realized immediately.

i do not miss driving gas cars

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The level of commentary posted to that article is strikingly different from what you see on yahoo message boards :lol:

1: Car purchases are not purely financial decisions. In fact, many Prius buyers are not choosing the Prius over "a comparable gasoline-powered" vehicle. Rather, you might see a $25-30K Prius bought by someone trading in an entry level luxury car (e.g. BMW 330, Acura TL, Audi A4, etc). What that buyer is doing is trading one set of non-economic benefits (style, image, sportiness, luxury) for another set of non- and partially-economic benefits (image, fuel savings, etc.). Often, that shift in preferences comes at a discount the previous $30-40K class of vehicle.

In fact, non-economic preferences drive the variable costs in most vehicle purchases in any category. For example, you can get a base model pickup that does 99% of the work of its top level trim brother, and the difference in cost is as much as double (e.g. the base Ford F150 starting at $23,300 and the top of the line Harley Davidson model starting at $48,955).

In essence, the car-buying public is quite used to paying high premiums for variations to a basic model of a vehicle in order to satisfy preferences that may be driven by styling, performance, economy, or luxury differences.

There was mention elsewhere of the turbodiesel being the top choice for efficiency. But what if I don't like vibration? Or the odor? Or maybe I really hate stopping for gas? If those things are important to me these other choices will forever suck.

 

[smkettner]

I assume the writer has not driven any of the vehicles in the comparison.
BTW does the writer drive a car purchased already gently used for 10 years because that is where the real savings happens :roll: :lol:

 

[thankyouOB]

Nice pick up, LTLFT:
I glom this one, too. It is a real-world analysis.
1: Car purchases are not purely financial decisions. In fact, many Prius buyers are not choosing the Prius over "a comparable gasoline-powered" vehicle. Rather, you might see a $25-30K Prius bought by someone trading in an entry level luxury car (e.g. BMW 330, Acura TL, Audi A4, etc). What that buyer is doing is trading one set of non-economic benefits (style, image, sportiness, luxury) for another set of non- and partially-economic benefits (image, fuel savings, etc.). Often, that shift in preferences comes at a discount the previous $30-40K class of vehicle.

If I didnt go Leaf, I would have kept commuting in my 1999 Volvo T5 with stick and squeezing 25 mpg out of it.
But I wanted the Oppty to go EV, and to get in on the big rebates.
In another life, I would have run the Volvo into the ground -- I keep cars for 10 years or more and do all the needed maintenance -- and then looked at another 30k-35k range car bought at the end of the model year.

I suppose moving up in age, however, might tickle my fancy to add a few gadgets, such as blue tooth and backup camera, that I otherwise would have thought were unnecessary.
I have always preferred cars with sticks over automatics. (an aside) and that didnt change when I got to LA and now "drive" on the freeways.
that is another way of saying that car choices are quirky.

 

[TRONZ]

Has it ever dawned on this NYT author that a lot of people would rather hand over thousands of dollars "extra" to ANYONE but an oil company??? And if your going to HAVE TO spend thousands of dollars over the cost of your car anyways, then just invest it towards a better cleaner future for our kids instead of digging the economic and environmental hole of oil even deeper???

If you HAVE TO spend the money anyways, spend it on the good stuff you like... and thats NOT oil!!!

 

[ENIAC]

If you HAVE TO spend the money anyways, spend it on the good stuff you like... and thats NOT oil!!!

TRONZ please don't be so down on oil. You need to consider the upside. If it weren't for our oil dependence, we wouldn't have those lovely wars would we? And without the perpetual wars how could the US possibly justify spending almost as much on defense as the rest of the world combined?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Has it ever dawned on this NYT author that a lot of people would rather hand over thousands of dollars "extra" to ANYONE but an oil company???...

u mean has he realized what we realized two years ago?? ...oh wait...wont be two years for another 2 weeks

for a very entertaining and informative show watch "How Beer Saved the World" it is a GREAT example how facts can be put together just about any way you want

 

[lenny]

since when do cars "pay you back"

when you drive a taxi...

I agree that the comparison with a Versa is ridiculous. However, I can't buy a Leaf without a lot of the extras, which are high profit add-ons for the manufacturer.

 

[TRONZ]

for a very entertaining and informative show watch "How Beer Saved the World" it is a GREAT example how facts can be put together just about any way you want

That show was AWESOME! Yes! Recommend!

 

[EricBayArea]

Wow that article was... dumb. I agree with all the comments people have made - By the authors logic why would someone buy anything more than the cheapest car. I mean, who'd buy a car because it was fun or a convertible, or silent- 'cause that's dumb and wouldn't make sense

By the way,

does the versa have:
-smart tire gauges that talk to you when you fill

I never knew the LEAF did this. Very cool

 

[SierraQ]

If you HAVE TO spend the money anyways, spend it on the good stuff you like... and thats NOT oil!!!

TRONZ please don't be so down on oil. You need to consider the upside. If it weren't for our oil dependence, we wouldn't have those lovely wars would we? And without the perpetual wars how could the US possibly justify spending almost as much on defense as the rest of the world combined?

Well that is because we've had to fight just about every country on the left half of that doughnut at one time or another, and not over oil.

Alarming graphics like that do not paint the whole picture. Another measure is military spending %GDP which is about 4-5% for the US--not terrible at all in those terms. Several countries in the middle east are 7-12%. So in other words, we can afford it so we do it. It is also important to realize that the U.S. tends to be at the cutting edge of technology and many other countries are buying last-decade tech or developing less sophisticated tech. New technology R&D is far, far more expensive that existing technology. So in other words you get what you pay for.

 

[SierraQ]

On the topic at hand, I just drove a Versa last month. I was actually kind of excited because it was the cousin to my Leaf. I discovered it was a very distant cousin! The outside is similar but the inside is very cheap by comparison, the handling and performance is inferior, and oh yeah it runs on that old technology know as gasoline-powered internal combustion engines.

You get what you pay for.

 

[Stoaty]

The Leaf has the things I value most:

--no tailpipe emissions, so not contributing to smog and resulting health problems
--can be powered on renewable energy
--doesn't contribute to oil dependency, which supports terrorist regimes and worsens our balance of payments
--doesn't contribute to global warming if run on renewable power (except for manufacture, construction and maintenance of renewable power plants)
--provides me with good, reliable transportation even in a severe gasoline shortage
--low cost of operation and likely lower maintenance costs the ICE
--ease of refueling (no visit to gas station)

Does the Versa have any of these things? Didn't think so. Do any other cars except electric cars have these things? Didn't think so.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

On the topic at hand, I just drove a Versa last month. I was actually kind of excited because it was the cousin to my Leaf. I discovered it was a very distant cousin! The outside is similar but the inside is very cheap by comparison, the handling and performance is inferior, and oh yeah it runs on that old technology know as gasoline-powered internal combustion engines.

You get what you pay for.

There are what I like to call "2 liter cars" (generally 1.8-2.0 liter engines) like corolla, civic, mazda3, sentra/versa, elantra and "2.5 liter cars" like camry, accord, altima, and sonata. Leaf feels more like a 2.5 liter car or bigger from the ride feel, maybe comparable to a Maxima.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

wow, is the tide turning for EV's or what... this is the first time I've seen the comments after one of these articles be so overwhelmingly well spoken! the author is getting a pounding!

Our ranks are growing!!!

I do realize this article is about more than just EV's but still, it's great to see!