Nissan : EV batteries must deliver 300 km (186 m) to compete

[AndyH]

The Hyundai Tucson stores H2 at 700 bar/10K PSI. If one has this vehicle, a rooftop PV array, and the microwave-sized electrolyzer

How much does this electrolyzer cost? Where can I buy one?

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress05/xi_13_jackson.pdf
The US company I found was Avalence in CT. We also found high-pressure electrolyzers under development in Germany, Russia, and Switzerland. Wikipedia says Mitubishi's also involved. Most of the DoE work appears to have been in the 2004/2007 period. There was at least one PV-H2 refueling station in operation in 2008 in Detroit: [edit: Avalence hardware - see powerpoint below] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319908003248 SunHydro's CT filling station was operating in 2010. While SunHydro was another company working on/with high-pressure electrolyzers, I don't know exactly how their filling station is configured. [edit: Appears to be Avalence tech - see Powerpoint below] http://www.cnet.com/news/sunhydro-opens-solar-hydrogen-refueling-station-in-ct/

Avalence's device is NOT a PEM - it's an alkaline electrolyzer.
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review05/pd26_ibrahim.pdf

My guess is that cost will be high until there's some volume, as are current FCEV.

edit...

Sorry - looks like the Avalence LLC website is unavailable. According to a number of DoE reports, their high-pressure alkaline electrolyzers use less energy than other types of equipment, and is capable of directly filling a 10K PSI/70 bar without a high pressure pump. They were commercially available in 2004.

2004 NREL summary
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/36705.pdf

Avalence Powerpoint slides from an April 2009 presentation - note the experience with both distributed H2 production and filling stations.
http://www.granitestatecleancities.nh.gov/stakeholders/documents/20090403_avalence_gsccc_mtg.pdf

More on Avalence - includes some background info and shows how efficiency increases at higher output pressure without mechanical compression.
http://www.hfcletter.com/issues/XX_1/stories/287-1.html

But as pressure increases, the bubbles become smaller, and efficiency increases again, typically about 2% better at 2,500 psi than at 250 psi. At pressures greater than 2,000 psi, the overall efficiency is about 10-15% higher than what is achievable with conventional electrolyzers teamed with compressors, says CEO Moss.

“It’s not a lot different than how we did it in the mid-sixties,” says Jackson. He explains the entire technology is an offshoot of know-how originally developed by Avalence’s two parent companies, Gas Equipment Engineering Corp. (GEEC), and Electric Heating Equipment Company. Electric Heating has been producing industrial low-pressure hydrogen generating equipment for 70 years...GEEC began developing highly reliable high-pressure oxygen generation equipment for the U.S. Navy’s nuclear aircraft carriers almost 40 years ago to produce liquid oxygen for the breathing supply of Navy carrier pilots. GEEC equipment is still used today in almost all of the Navy’s active nuclear carriers.

edits...additional content and links; corrected Avalence electrolyzer tech - alkaline not PEM.

 

[AndyH]

I caught up with some EV reading this morning and came to the OP article via EVWorld. My earlier comments were made before reading the article. Seems I might have a clue after all.

Nice synergies here both on the development side and in the retail space. Progress...

 

[donald]

..The proof is in the eating. Let him serve his pudding before adulating it above other dishes.

 

[AndyH]

..The proof is in the eating. Let him serve his pudding before adulating it above other dishes.

The pudding was on the table in 2013 and found to be exquisite.

 

[Stoaty]

SunHydro's CT filling station was operating in 2010. While SunHydro was another company working on/with high-pressure electrolyzers, I don't know exactly how their filling station is configured. [edit: Appears to be Avalence tech - see Powerpoint below] http://www.cnet.com/news/sunhydro-opens-solar-hydrogen-refueling-station-in-ct/

I calculate the cost ($10 per kg) to be approximately equivalent to gasoline at $4.54 per gallon. For a Prius type vehicle that would be around 9 cents per mile. Think I will stick with my Leaf, which I can drive for 3 cents a mile using renewable energy exclusively.

 

[donald]

..The proof is in the eating. Let him serve his pudding before adulating it above other dishes.

The pudding was on the table in 2013 and found to be exquisite.

Really? Where do I buy this FCEV with a comparable price to a BEV and a 60,000 mile warranty?

 

[fudd246]

Instead of the entertaining FCEV vs BEV, can someone enlighten us with inside information, or at least a reasonable clue as to how Nissan will get that 300 km range of the next gen LEAF:

* improved aerodynamics
* drivetrain efficiencies
* battery chemistry
* battery TMS
* ???

 

[keydiver]

* battery chemistry

After seeing that professor's video, demonstrating the dramatic improvements in both the number of charging cycles and heat tolerance with a little tweaking of the battery chemistry, maybe Nissan will give us another 5% of the battery's capacity? Its just a thought, but it would be a start. I doubt there is much to be gained by increases in aerodynamic or drivetrain efficiency improvements. My guess would be they are banking on substantial improvements in battery density and then packing more in the car somehow.

 

[JeremyW]

I think aerodynamic improvements would help substantially at highway speeds, where range is needed the most. The leaf could use quite a few tweaks in this regard. I also think a more dense and longer lasting chemistry is required.

 

[AndyH]

SunHydro's CT filling station was operating in 2010. While SunHydro was another company working on/with high-pressure electrolyzers, I don't know exactly how their filling station is configured. [edit: Appears to be Avalence tech - see Powerpoint below] http://www.cnet.com/news/sunhydro-opens-solar-hydrogen-refueling-station-in-ct/

I calculate the cost ($10 per kg) to be approximately equivalent to gasoline at $4.54 per gallon. For a Prius type vehicle that would be around 9 cents per mile. Think I will stick with my Leaf, which I can drive for 3 cents a mile using renewable energy exclusively.

Sloaty - if the cost of H2 was correct and the BEV range was sufficient for my needs, I'd agree with you.

Yup - here's the but. As of 2 Dec 13, the price for a kilo of H2 at the station near Long Beach was $3.99. And since a kg is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline, and since a FCEV uses that energy 2.2 times more efficiently than the Prius uses gasoline, that brings the price of gasoline down to about $1.80. Since about half of currently-fielded H2 filling stations are running from renewables, and one is reforming biogas from a landfill, the apparent assumption that H2=fossil source is also not accurate.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&start=440
http://cafcp.org/stations/los_angeles_-_harbor_city

PS - Renault/Nissan is a partner in France's implementation of the Third Industrial Revolution - one of 5 pillars is electrification of transportation -- and that's both BEV and FCEV.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ENVIRONMENT/CAR/FUEL_BATTERY/DEVELOPMENT/FCV/

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/10001_well_to_wheels_gge_petroleum_use.pdf

 

[AndyH]

Instead of the entertaining FCEV vs BEV, can someone enlighten us with inside information, or at least a reasonable clue as to how Nissan will get that 300 km range of the next gen LEAF:

* improved aerodynamics
* drivetrain efficiencies
* battery chemistry
* battery TMS
* ???

So far, the only things I've found have been rumors and/or guesses for the 2016/2017 model years. They all suggested Nissan's looking at larger battery capacity. I have no idea what/when this might happen. Aero mods will only significantly affect 40+ MPH driving - it won't change the city range/MPGe. The only chemistry change I've seen that could allow a noticeable range increase without a larger capacity would be to go with a Teslaesque lithium cobalt cell.

I'd like to know what they'll do as well.

 

[TomT]

The drivetrain efficiency is already so high there is basically nothing there left to harvest...
Battery TMS will help with degradation and perhaps winter range but not offer anything of real value in terms of overall range...
Efficiency will help in the real world (the Leaf is particularly bad over 55) but not that dramatically...

Battery chemistry and capacity is the real key.

Instead of the entertaining FCEV vs BEV, can someone enlighten us with inside information, or at least a reasonable clue as to how Nissan will get that 300 km range of the next gen LEAF:
* improved aerodynamics
* drivetrain efficiencies
* battery chemistry
* battery TMS

 

[donald]

Yup - here's the but. As of 2 Dec 13, the price for a kilo of H2 at the station near Long Beach was $3.99. And since a kg is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline, and since a FCEV uses that energy 2.2 times more efficiently than the Prius uses gasoline, that brings the price of gasoline down to about $1.80.

I ask again, where is this car that can do this, and where do I buy it? I'll go with the EPA figure for the car you're discussing on its consumption than trust 'theory', but I can't find an EPA figure for H2 consumption in a production car.

Could you please explain why that is?

Under 'fuel type' in http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/powerSearch.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I can't see the 'hydrogen' option for searching for cars. It's a real simple question - why can't I find the EPA figures on any hydrogen car you are talking about?

In NEDC testing, 'production ready' FCEVs like the ix35 and the B class 'F-cell' are returning around the 1 kg H2 per 100 km. So that'd be $4/60 miles in Long Beach, about 7c per mile. EPA figures are usually around 50% pessimistic than NEDC, so call it a round 10c/mile.

 

[AndyH]

Yup - here's the but. As of 2 Dec 13, the price for a kilo of H2 at the station near Long Beach was $3.99. And since a kg is roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline, and since a FCEV uses that energy 2.2 times more efficiently than the Prius uses gasoline, that brings the price of gasoline down to about $1.80.

I ask again, where is this car that can do this, and where do I buy it? I'll go with the EPA figure for the car you're discussing on its consumption than trust 'theory', but I can't find an EPA figure for H2 consumption in a production car.

Could you please explain why that is?

Under 'fuel type' in http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/powerSearch.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I can't see the 'hydrogen' option for searching for cars. It's a real simple question - why can't I find the EPA figures on any hydrogen car you are talking about?

In NEDC testing, 'production ready' FCEVs like the ix35 and the B class 'F-cell' are returning around the 1 kg H2 per 100 km. So that'd be $4/60 miles in Long Beach, about 7c per mile. EPA figures are usually around 50% pessimistic than NEDC, so call it a round 10c/mile.

Donald, we've covered this multiple times here and in the main US hydrogen thread. The US did not receive the first Hyundai fuel cell CUVs. They're in operation in S Korea, UK, Germany, Denmark, Italy and other countries. Denmark received their first 15 production vehicles in June, 2013. These vehicles were also tested in California. You won't find EPA numbers until the US model (a Tucson, not the Euro-labeled ix35) arrives - possibly within the next six weeks. This is not a 'production ready' vehicle - it's in full production. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744

That's really the point of my insistence that we become familiar with the Euro hydrogen progress and the Third Industrial Revolution roll-out as Europe is well ahead of the US in both deploying renewables and in fielding electric transportation.

The info you're looking for can be found in the other thread and via Google.