DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
As a silver lining for this group, guessing Leaf sales will then continue to at least 2023 then, hopefully longer.
DougWantsALeaf said:As a silver lining for this group, guessing Leaf sales will then continue to at least 2023 then, hopefully longer.
OrientExpress said:A combination of the Covid and supplier shutdowns, along with a reevaluation of the Ariya's feature sets compared to the current competition and internal Nissan issues is the cause of this schedule.
danrjones said:Reevaluation? Does that mean Nissan saw Hyundai and Kia coming with superior tech and wanted to delay to bring theirs up to compete? If so, what changes are being made? I would think changing to 800v at this point in development would be... HARD.
alozzy said:@danrjones This article's author seems to think the base price for the Ioniq 5 will be $40k USD:
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/hyundai/hyundai-ioniq-5-details-pre-orders/
OrientExpress said:danrjones said:Reevaluation? Does that mean Nissan saw Hyundai and Kia coming with superior tech and wanted to delay to bring theirs up to compete? If so, what changes are being made? I would think changing to 800v at this point in development would be... HARD.
The BEV market competition has continued to evolve since the Ariya product specs were developed. This, along with the pandemic and supplier constraints gave Nissan the opportunity to make sure that they had a vehicle that was price/feature competitive. There are some edge-case capabilities, like the 800v charging systems that won't make it into the car, but other things might.
Then there is the refresh of the Generation 2 LEAF that is causing angst at Nissan as well.
When has that ever been a consumer choice ?danrjones said:Deciding between range and charging speed is an interesting conversation.
Market-speak translated: Nissan realized the Ariya was gong to be a flop: Too little for too high a cost compared to its competitors. I imagine that is mostly ID.4, but perhaps Model Y as well.OrientExpress said:This, along with the pandemic and supplier constraints gave Nissan the opportunity to make sure that they had a vehicle that was price/feature competitive.
SageBrush said:When has that ever been a consumer choice ?danrjones said:Deciding between range and charging speed is an interesting conversation.
danrjones said:SageBrush said:When has that ever been a consumer choice ?danrjones said:Deciding between range and charging speed is an interesting conversation.
It is, by choosing which vehicle you buy. Get the Hyundai, and you get charging speed, get the Ariya, and you get longer range. Potentially.
Obviously details on both are still pending, but we know the Hyundai and Kia will hit ~250 kW and 10-80% in 18 minutes. We know they have usable battery capacity of 77 kWh in the United states. We know Nissan originally said 90 kWh for the Ariya long range. Will that translate into more range? TBD?
SageBrush said:danrjones said:SageBrush said:When has that ever been a consumer choice ?
It is, by choosing which vehicle you buy. Get the Hyundai, and you get charging speed, get the Ariya, and you get longer range. Potentially.
Obviously details on both are still pending, but we know the Hyundai and Kia will hit ~250 kW and 10-80% in 18 minutes. We know they have usable battery capacity of 77 kWh in the United states. We know Nissan originally said 90 kWh for the Ariya long range. Will that translate into more range? TBD?
That is just marketing BS. The high(er) speed charging is from hidden battery capacity
No.danrjones said:Sometimes that is the case, but not always. Hyundai it is because they moved to 800v.
SageBrush said:No.danrjones said:Sometimes that is the case, but not always. Hyundai it is because they moved to 800v.
More marketing BS
Agreed about the physics, but that does not extrapolate out to a faster charging session. A simple example is the '400v' system Tesla at a V3 Supercharger or a Ionity station in Europe compared to an '800v' Porsche. at a '350 kW' station. Each case is about the same charging session time because they have similar pack sizes and chemistries. Using similar chemistries, the average C rate will be similar and since the current is not the limiting factor, voltage increases do not matter.danrjones said:Because from a physics standpoint, if you raise the voltage, it means you can pull less current. That does matter when you are running a lot of current through wires. But you already know that.
Sorry, but I don't think it is just marketing.
SageBrush said:Physics makes this all obvious but common sense will do too: do you *really* think that Hyundai has out-engineered Porsche using commodity LG battery cells ?
Two sides to that coin. If you double voltage, then yes, the physical wire can be smaller and carry less current. But, the insulation now has to increase exponentially because the higher voltage can break through and start shorting along the way. So basically you are fighting wire that either the copper gets bigger or the installation gets bigger and in those tightly packed cells, 800V might start causing shorts, especially if a lot of it is air gap. Air, while a good insulator, can still conduct with high enough voltage to overcome it. It would just be some new engineering issues to switch to 800V.danrjones said:But if you suddenly re-engineered your battery to run at 800v, switchable if I understand it right, then when at 800v you would not have to up the current through the wiring leading to the pack. Double the voltage, leave the current the same.
knightmb said:Two sides to that coin. If you double voltage, then yes, the physical wire can be smaller and carry less current. But, the insulation now has to increase exponentially because the higher voltage can break through and start shorting along the way. So basically you are fighting wire that either the copper gets bigger or the installation gets bigger and in those tightly packed cells, 800V might start causing shorts, especially if a lot of it is air gap. Air, while a good insulator, can still conduct with high enough voltage to overcome it. It would just be some new engineering issues to switch to 800V.danrjones said:But if you suddenly re-engineered your battery to run at 800v, switchable if I understand it right, then when at 800v you would not have to up the current through the wiring leading to the pack. Double the voltage, leave the current the same.
danrjones said:OrientExpress said:A combination of the Covid and supplier shutdowns, along with a reevaluation of the Ariya's feature sets compared to the current competition and internal Nissan issues is the cause of this schedule.
Reevaluation? Does that mean Nissan saw Hyundai and Kia coming with superior tech and wanted to delay to bring theirs up to compete? If so, what changes are being made? I would think changing to 800v at this point in development would be... HARD.
I already put $100 down on the Ionic 5. I'm not certain it will be the one, because the price may end up being too high. The first edition of the corresponding Kia EV6 is MSRP 58k. That is WAY too high for me, if the Ionic 5 ends up being about the same, I'll have to pass. It may depend on what features are with what trim level.
Enter your email address to join: