Natural Gas Vehicles to "Kill" Electric Cars

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Jeff Siegel said:
However, before you electric vehicle lovers get too excited, consider that an all-electric Nissan LEAF will run you about $28,000 (after the tax credit), while the Honda CNG Civic will run about $26,000 — with no tax credit.
Actually, that's not true. CNG vehicles qualify for a $4,000 tax credit: Federal Tax Credits for Alternative Fuel Vehicles

Regardless... I'll pass on that substitute drug, thanks.
 
there have already been extensive studies done on a significant movement to CNG powered vehicles and they all seem to have the same conclusion. CNG is just as finite as oil.

one person states they drove a CNG and its 20% cheaper than gas. i am driving a Leaf and its 70% cheaper than gas. if you have Solar, you are kicking my ass. so why are we even talking about this?

even if CNG's price were cut in half right now, it would still be more money than EVs and you still have to go somewhere to get it so you get right back to the "pitfalls of gasoline"
 
Yanquetino said:
Jeff Siegel said:
However, before you electric vehicle lovers get too excited, consider that an all-electric Nissan LEAF will run you about $28,000 (after the tax credit), while the Honda CNG Civic will run about $26,000 — with no tax credit.
Actually, that's not true. CNG vehicles qualify for a $4,000 tax credit: Federal Tax Credits for Alternative Fuel Vehicles

Regardless... I'll pass on that substitute drug, thanks.

This credit expired so it is no longer available.
 
My Leaf and my wife's 2008 Civic GX coexist peacefully in my garage. I now have over 20k miles on my Leaf and have enjoyed driving it more than any car I have owned in the last 15 years. However, the LEAF can't do what the Civic GX can....allow for a 100 mile commute on Southern California freeways without a charge. The moment I can buy a reasonably priced EV with a real world 125 mile range, I will replace the Civic GX. I like the way the Leaf drives a lot more than the Civic and so does my wife, and we've both driven Civic GX's for about 7 years. L3 charging is not nearly as attractive to me as a real world 125 mile battery since I know my wife simply wants to go to work and back and maybe do some errands without having to stop and charge or fuel. Personally I don't think NGVs will kill EVs. Having said that, I do believe EVs will appeal to a much larger segment of the population if Nissan and others offered an EV with a minimum 125 mile real world range (at 75 mph) instead of focusing on bells and whistles in EVs.
 
Smidge204 said:
As someone who designs, builds and operates CNG stations as part of my job, allow me to weigh in: I'm highly skeptical that natural gas cars will harm EV sales.

With respect to CNG stations in populated areas... we tend to put them in industrial/heavy commercial zones

I have to ask - how do you get around the requirement of providing free air and water that other gas stations are required to have. I thought that was a federal law - yet CNG stations don't have them, although they are in essence no different than conventional gas stations. Why the waiver?
 
Nubo said:
I used to operate NG-powered (or maybe they were propane?) forklifts. There's an odorant mixed into the gas so that people can detect leaks. The odor is changed somewhat by combustion but as I recall it was still noticeable. Not horrible, but somewhat "icky". Do NG-powered cars have this "smelly" tendency?
With the compressed natural gas (CNG) they can and do add odor, but with Liquid Natural Gas (LNG) they can't.

The exhaust does not have an odor that I notice.

In many areas the smell would not be enough to detect a slow leak such as from an O ring, and the gas goes up, so a sufficient quantity would have to rise before it got low enough to be smelled. Likely too late at that point.
 
Electrics don't work well as long haul trucks so CNG or LPG are the best alternatives. Big rigs don't make up that high a percentage of the vehicles on the road but they use a lot of oil.
 
Caracalover said:
I have to ask - how do you get around the requirement of providing free air and water that other gas stations are required to have. I thought that was a federal law - yet CNG stations don't have them, although they are in essence no different than conventional gas stations. Why the waiver?
I've never heard of such a requirement, and indeed the only gas stations in my area that provide free air and water are Hess stations - particularly ironic since Hess doesn't operate repair shops where they would have an air compressor anyway.

Googling around it seems like a California requirement. It applies only to stations that sell gasoline or diesel fuel, and membership/cardlocked stations (which our CNG stations all are) are exempt. Also, we're in New York so it's not like California laws need apply...
=Smidge=
 
Caracalover said:
In many areas the smell would not be enough to detect a slow leak such as from an O ring, and the gas goes up, so a sufficient quantity would have to rise before it got low enough to be smelled. Likely too late at that point.

I imagine it would be hard to seal the structure enough so that a dangerous level builds up.. its not easy to ignite methane.

You need at least 5% methane in the air to have an explosion danger, vs 1.4% for gasoline vapors.

The stinky stuff they add to barbecue gas (LPG) is Ethyl Mercaptan, the smelliest stuff in nature.. it would freeze out at the temperature LNG is kept at.
 
LEAFfan said:
And if people are thinking about converting their gas car to CNG, forget it!
They don't run with the same efficiency, aren't smooth, have lots of stalling, and are very expensive to convert.

I converted a Ford station wagon to LPG when I was still in Australia and did not have any of these issues. The process involved piggy-backing a computer onto the existing engine management computer, as well as the plumbing from the LPG tank to the engine. A smaller gasoline tank was installed in the original gas tank location with a bay for the LPG tank. The new computer co-operated with the existing computer to always start the engine on gasoline then switch to LPG at a something like 1500 RPM. This way the gasoline lubricated the valve guides, etc. on startup and allowed the drier LPG to run the engine at highway speeds. The switch to LPG was almost seamless.

In Australia the fuel companies have installed LPG bowsers right alongside the gasoline ones so you simply drive up to the fuel that you want. Back then, petrol (gasoline) was 70c per litre and LPG was 20c per litre. Now it's more like $1.40/litre and 70c/litre.

Although you don't get as much power out of a litre of LPG compared to gasoline, it is reflected in higher MPG. I did not notice much difference in power between LPG and gasoline. The car ran great. Regrettably I did not keep it long enough to break even on the conversion costs because I moved to the States. :)

Cheers/73, Bert/KG4BEC/VK3JCL
 
That's LPG, not CNG, a big difference with the way it operates in the car. Also, LPG is much heavier than CNG and will pool if leaked. I've talked to many people that have had CNG conversions, and not ONE has had much luck with it, including the conversion I once owned. Most of the people I've seen with LPG conversions, rarely use them because they just did to get the 50% rebate on their SUV or truck.
 
One nice thing about LPG conversions - high effective octane.
LPG acts like ~112 octane fuel, so you can run a lot of turbo or supercharger boost to get the power back up again.

I am not sure if CNG is the same way.
A LNG conversion without forced induction is a bit of a waste, IMHO...

I wish they would do LPG & CNG as hybrids. Why not get the advantages of both technologies.
(Honda CNG Civic is NOT a hybrid...)
 
I really don't think that CNG vehicles will be a threat to EVs. I have researched many alternative fuels over the years: biodiesel, hydrogen, ethanol, CNG, etc. I think that many of them have some potential, but they have never managed to have more that a brief time in the limelight.
I love biodiesel, and I bought myself an old diesel Mercedes last year, just so I could have a more environmentally responsible commuter car. However, I had to drive 30+ miles to make it to the only non bulk distributor in the area. I could have had the fuel delivered in bulk, but that car got great mileage, and I would not have been able to use up all 250 gallons before its shelf life came up. I had the knowledge, but not the time to produce my own fuel.
I was excited to hear about hydrogen in the 90s, and again when the "Hydrogen Highway" was proposed. However, most of our hydrogen comes from fossil fuels and the costs of running on hydrogen are still prohibatively expensive.
Ethanol seemed like a great fuel, at first. Just a few years ago, we were looking for a family car. My husband is a Chevy man, and the salesman was trying to get me interested in Flex Fuel. "You can save so much money because ethanol is so much cheaper!", he touted. I tapped the sticker on the window. "Um...it looks like you get quite a bit worse fuel economy with E85." Then, I researched about the water and pesticides that are needed to support the ethanol crops. Maybe ethanol wasn't as great as I originally thought.
As for CNG, it is cleaner burning, and it would be nice to rely on a more local source of fuel. I remember when many people scrambled to convert their vehicles to duel-fuel (gasoline and CNG) to take advantage of a nice tax credit. However, many of these people ran primarily on gasoline, due to the ease of refueling and abundance of stations.
For some reason, our society does not seem willing to give up gasoline. Plus, our government seems more willing to spend money on subsudizing petrolium products (including CNG), than other alternative fuels.
So...why the heck did I buy an EV?
1. I wanted a zero emissions vehicle (or at least a much lower emissions vehicle).
2. I was tired of paying so much for a fuel that I knew was harmful.
3. I wanted something that was more energy efficient.
4. I wanted a vehicle I could charge/refuel at home with minimal fuss.
5. I wanted to be part of a movement to show the rest of the world that we can function without burning fuel in our commuter vehicles.
I'm assuming that many other folks had the same reasons for wanting an EV.

How do NGVs (Natural Gas Vehicles) measure up to EVs?
1. Though NGVs do have less tailpipe emissions than gasoline, they have greater emissions than gasoline in their production and transportation.
2. NGVs are cheaper to fuel than gasoline vehicles, though still more expensive than EVs.
3. NGVs are about as efficient as gasoline vehicles. EVs are more efficient than both NGVs and gasoline vehicles. Hooray for the second law of thermodynamics!
4. You can refuel your NGV at home with the right equipment if you already have natural gas supplied to your house. If you do not (I don't), you would have to have it delivered and stored in a tank.
5. NGVs still burn fuel.
So, it would seem comparing NGVs and EVs is like comparing apples to oranges. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. They are from two different markets.
 
skippycoyote said:
How do NGVs (Natural Gas Vehicles) measure up to EVs?
1. Though NGVs do have less tailpipe emissions than gasoline, they have greater emissions than gasoline in their production and transportation.
2. NGVs are cheaper to fuel than gasoline vehicles, though still more expensive than EVs.
3. NGVs are about as efficient as gasoline vehicles. EVs are more efficient than both NGVs and gasoline vehicles. Hooray for the second law of thermodynamics!
4. You can refuel your NGV at home with the right equipment if you already have natural gas supplied to your house. If you do not (I don't), you would have to have it delivered and stored in a tank.
5. NGVs still burn fuel.
So, it would seem comparing NGVs and EVs is like comparing apples to oranges. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages. They are from two different markets.
I have to question #1 and #4...

1) The only functional difference between a gasoline and natural gas vehicle is the fuel tank and fuel delivery system. Both of these differences are incredibly minor. What makes you say manufacturing an NGV produces greater emissions?

4) I don't know of anyone who has natural gas delivered and stored in a tank... unless you mean propane, which I suppose is technically a natural gas but not what most people think of when you say Natural Gas - which is methane. Considering the safety concerns with storing methane (either in compressed gas or cryogenic liquid) I can't imagine many people would have or want such a storage system in their home. To refuel a methane powered vehicle, you either need a gas pipe to your home with a compressor, or you go to a fueling station.

Otherwise I agree with your post entirely. :cool:
=Smidge=
 
Honestly, NGV are, in my opinion, a step in the right direction, but its just a bridging technology. To me, NGV vehicles are PERFECT for fleets. Especially for busses (school or transit). Buses with NGV are a little more than gas, but end being better for air polution (and cheaper over their lifetime). With busses, the exit pipe air emissions becomes more important than the production emissions. Having people around the bus getting in or out, or, especially, kids around the bus, lower emissions become way more important. A prime example is the outdoor street mall in Colorado. So much foot traffic and busses that run up and down, CNG busses were a welcome relief in comparison to diesel.

Yes, NGV are still using fossil fuels, but its a better fossil fuel (i.e. switching from coal to oil in ships and trains). While it is not a good final solution, its a perfect step in the right direction!
 
Electrics still provide a ride with terrific HVH. CNG vehicles don't. I've driven the Honda CNG Civic. I don't drive a Civic but it seemed like it drove just like a gas Civic. So I don't see EV vs. NatGas vehicles being much of an apples to apples comparison.
 
SanDust said:
Electrics don't work well as long haul trucks so CNG or LPG are the best alternatives. Big rigs don't make up that high a percentage of the vehicles on the road but they use a lot of oil.
Long haul trucks are simly not sustainable. We need trains for long haul & ev trucks work well locally.
 
evnow said:
SanDust said:
Electrics don't work well as long haul trucks so CNG or LPG are the best alternatives. Big rigs don't make up that high a percentage of the vehicles on the road but they use a lot of oil.
Long haul trucks are simly not sustainable. We need trains for long haul & ev trucks work well locally.
Alcohol is a liquid fuel that can feed large trucks using current CO2 rather than dino-CO2. I cannot agree that either CNG or LPG are the best alternatives to diesel.
 
AndyH said:
Alcohol is a liquid fuel that can feed large trucks using current CO2 rather than dino-CO2. I cannot agree that either CNG or LPG are the best alternatives to diesel.
What if that gas is itself biologically derived? I guess it comes down to what's more efficient.

I really see no reason why long-haul trucks couldn't be at least partially electrified. How many kWh or battery could you hang from the underside of the trailer? Even if electric provides only 10% of your trip energy budget, that's 10% fuel savings. Even long-haul trucking can benefit from regenerative braking and launch assist if nothing else.

Hybrid electric road tractors with bio-derived CNG/LNG range extenders. Done!
=Smidge=
 
How about a Capstone 30 turbine running on NG to supplement a grid tied 50kW DC charger? .. Avoid some of those extra charges that utilities pile on.
 
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