May Deliveries! Or... May(be)?

[supernoman]

SDR-00035 order from Kearny Mesa Mossy (Leon). RAQ 10/1/10. Estimated May delivery.
Glacier Pearl.

I'm mad at Walter.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

If these Jan/Feb orders arrive before my October order, and there's a major pause in delivery due to the horrific disaster, and the CA fund is tapped out, I don't think Nissan is correctly estimating the backlash and ill-will that will result from failing to honor the "order order".

This whole "scramble the orders and ship them all by May" has the potential to go horribly wrong.

Asking around locally, I'm starting to get the impression that Jan/Feb orders are actually getting Priority in general, and these are not isolated cases. I am at a loss for any explanation.

 

[RevBrent]

This whole "scramble the orders and ship them all by May" has the potential to go horribly wrong.

Asking around locally, I'm starting to get the impression that Jan/Feb orders are actually getting Priority in general, and these are not isolated cases. I am at a loss for any explanation.

Could you explain this a little more? What have you heard that would lead you to think that Jan/Feb orders might actually be getting priority and not just be part of an orphaned Leaf reassignment?

 

[smkettner]

I have said it before that I think many of these late comers are moving up to take orphans and cancelled orders.
Noone is losing their spot but a few are getting just released front row seats.

 

[detlefo]

Suspension of operations at the Oppama plant has been extended to March 20th.

http://www.nissannews.com/newsrelease.do?id=2321&mid=

 

[shtimseht]

All -

Yesterday I received this e-mail:

>Hi Ken, congratulations! Your vehicle is scheduled to arrive at your Nissan Dealer in the month of May 2011.
>
>As your Nissan LEAF™ is being built and shipped, we will continue to update your vehicle's status. So make sure to sign in to >"my account" to stay current with your estimated delivery date.
>
>Please be aware that it is normal for delivery dates to fluctuate by a few days as production is finalized. Should your delivery >date change by more than two weeks, we will send you an email to notify you of the change.

What is interesting (other than that I presumed the country was primary focused on it recovery efforts and production of major manufacturing facilities would be curtailed to save resources) is that I made my reservation on 7/28/10 and my RAQ confirmed (order) on 2/15/11. If true it would be a delivery date with in 3 months.

 

[thankyouOB]

There is a federal tax credit.
You can pretty much guarantee that either through leasing or, if you have an IRA, doing a ROTH transfer and adjusting your income to be able to have sufficient tax to take the credit.

There is also the possibility of some level of rebate from CA. That is NOT an entitlement. Too many folks around here think they are owed this or that it is guaranteed. You have to figure the car costs 25k with federal credit and be willing to pay that. If you get lucky and hit the CA rebate, that should be a bonus. The idea that you can complain about not getting it, or blame Nissan, seems very wrong to me.

 

[DaveEV]

If these Jan/Feb orders arrive before my October order, and there's a major pause in delivery due to the horrific disaster, and the CA fund is tapped out, I don't think Nissan is correctly estimating the backlash and ill-will that will result from failing to honor the "order order".

This whole "scramble the orders and ship them all by May" has the potential to go horribly wrong.

Asking around locally, I'm starting to get the impression that Jan/Feb orders are actually getting Priority in general, and these are not isolated cases. I am at a loss for any explanation.

I am thinking that while it's right to be concerned, I think it's too early to be able to say definitely that 2011 orders are getting ahead of 2010 orders. There's already been at least one case of a Jan order getting moved to May from April - I believe that we will see most of these get moved to May as many of us current May deliveries were shifted from April to May.

And for sure - I won't be put off by any delays caused by the Earthquake. If I do indeed get the rebate I am considering donating extra to the relief efforts in Japan.

The idea that you can complain about not getting it, or blame Nissan, seems very wrong to me.

I disagree. For a lot of people the rebate is a deciding factor in whether or not they can purchase the car - and that is exactly why the program exists. That is a big reason that CA is getting about 70% of total deliveries at this point in time. Given that the rebate funds are handed out first come first served (and CCSE is very good at doing this) - it seems reasonable that Nissan should deliver cars in first come first served order to the best of their ability.

All that said - I still think there's a good chance that the existing rebate funds for ~1300 EVs will be enough for orders up through Jan/Feb so the many of us Oct orders who are anxious over the rebate will be OK. We will know a lot more in 2 weeks when the Luna Spirit drops of it's ~600 Leafs and Carwings starts opening up.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I would not be upset at Nissan for the CA rebate running out. I would be upset at Nissan for re-ording orders such that they did not honor the FIFO commitments made during the reservation process.

I'm not buying the "selected orphan spots" theory either. All the options are Port-installed, so you have three trim levels and some colors. I have what is likely the most common configuration in California: Blue eTec. If such an orphan opened up, why would they reach into the 2011 orders to fill it? Makes no sense.

So yes -- if the rebate is dried up by the time I lease my car, and the Jan/Feb orders received priority shipment and were able to take advantage of it, that would be Nissan's fault.

 

[thankyouOB]

The CA rebate is a CA program.
Nissan is handling its process independent of that.
I dont see how you can hold Nissan responsible for how it handles its internal process because there is some external factor that it is not responsible for.

As to the 5k being the reason you can afford the car; that is a personal decision about how to allocate your available funds and spending. If no rebate is a deal breaker, then maybe you can't afford it, or more likely you don't place a high enough value on it and the contribution it makes to a cleaner environment.

I don't want to be a hard-ass, but we all make choices. I too have to confront whether I can pay 25k for the car without the rebate, or would I only buy it at 20k. Regardless, we have to put the full 32.5k up front before getting the federal credit. The alternative is leasing.

By the way, I really like that suggestion about putting part of the rebate to relief efforts.

 

[smkettner]

I'm not buying the "selected orphan spots" theory either. All the options are Port-installed, so you have three trim levels and some colors. I have what is likely the most common configuration in California: Blue eTec. If such an orphan opened up, why would they reach into the 2011 orders to fill it? Makes no sense.

Except your place and vehicle is probably already assigned. So if everyone moves forward to reflect an open car Nissan would have to reassign 500+ cars to different people to keep the order. Not going to happen.

It would be unfortunate if a bunch of non-CA people cancel and CA people are put infront of us. Eventually it is going to matter to a handfull of people that just miss the CA rebate.

 

[ttweed]

The CA rebate is a CA program.
Nissan is handling its process independent of that. I dont see how you can hold Nissan responsible for how it handles its internal process because there is some external factor that it is not responsible for.

I am holding them responsible for doing what they said they would do--deliver cars in the order of reservations that were received. Are you saying that Nissan is not aware of the EV incentives that exist in CA, or the expectations of people who have been waiting a year for their cars now, and are suddenly "independently" deciding to conform to some other production/delivery scheme? Not likely, and it would be a very poor marketing move to ignore the promises made to people like me who had problems in ordering, due to dashboard/software problems, AV waivers, EVP assessments, etc., that these delays would not affect their delivery dates. To have people who reserved and ordered 3-4 months later receive their cars before I do will color my perception of their corporate competence and ethics regardless of whether it means I miss the CA rebate or not.

If no rebate is a deal breaker, then maybe you can't afford it, or more likely you don't place a high enough value on it and the contribution it makes to a cleaner environment.

This is nothing more than a cavalier "greener than thou" red herring argument.

TT

 

[Boomer23]

The CA rebate is a CA program.
Nissan is handling its process independent of that.
I dont see how you can hold Nissan responsible for how it handles its internal process because there is some external factor that it is not responsible for.

As to the 5k being the reason you can afford the car; that is a personal decision about how to allocate your available funds and spending. If no rebate is a deal breaker, then maybe you can't afford it, or more likely you don't place a high enough value on it and the contribution it makes to a cleaner environment.

If you've been reading regularly, you'll know that Nissan delayed LEAF shipments outside of Japan in favor of domestic deliveries to respond to the early cancellation of a Japanese rebate program. This shows that Nissan can and does adjust its shipment schedule where rebate programs are involved. All of the EV manufacturers are acutely aware of the rebate programs. In fact, they lobbied for the adoption of these programs. Without the rebates, EV adoption will be slower and in fact may die on the vine after early adopters like us have their cars.

Many buyers made the decision to buy because of the incentive of the California rebate as well as the Federal rebate. For some people it is a perfectly reasonable decision to cancel a LEAF order if the full $5k is not available. I say that with the full awareness that the CCSE folks will maintain a rebate reservation waiting list, and I'm grateful for their level of organization and commitment to fair sequencing of the rebates. I don't RECOMMEND the cancellation of orders, since there will be a waiting list and there still MAY be releases of future funding, but I understand that the $5k may make all the difference to many families, and waiting lists put you in the long term position of waiting and hoping for a rebate for many more months after buying or leasing the car.

to thankyouOB, I say with respect that your opinion is likely based on your own level of financial security and the fact that you have an enviable April delivery date despite reserving your LEAF a month after some others who have "month of May" delivery advisories. Your stated opinion, I'm afraid, reminds me of the attitude I've seen on BMW forums of "If you're worried about the cost of replacement tires for a BMW, maybe you can't really afford to own one." It sounds pretty elitist.

 

[Beachcliffs]

In my case, while we can afford the car without the rebate, I am not all that enamored with any number of it's aspects (styling, range, potential battery life etc) and the $5,000 rebate was a significant component of the decision to go ahead and be an early adapter. I was also told by a Nissan rep that my April 20th reservation date would be more important than my order date (Oct 4th) which is why I did not order in early September. So, the prospects of still being a relatively early order date, but not having delivery in time to be sure of the CA rebate (while people with both later reservations and orders do gain such a benefit) DOES NOT SIT WELL.

I have waited this long for an acceptable electric car, so without the rebate, there is a good chance that I will wait for a better car rather than giving Nissan my business. Other members of this forum can think of me as they will.

 

[1051]

The CA rebate is a CA program.
Nissan is handling its process independent of that.
I dont see how you can hold Nissan responsible for how it handles its internal process because there is some external factor that it is not responsible for.

As to the 5k being the reason you can afford the car; that is a personal decision about how to allocate your available funds and spending. If no rebate is a deal breaker, then maybe you can't afford it, or more likely you don't place a high enough value on it and the contribution it makes to a cleaner environment.

If you've been reading regularly, you'll know that Nissan delayed LEAF shipments outside of Japan in favor of domestic deliveries to respond to the early cancellation of a Japanese rebate program. This shows that Nissan can and does adjust its shipment schedule where rebate programs are involved. All of the EV manufacturers are acutely aware of the rebate programs. In fact, they lobbied for the adoption of these programs. Without the rebates, EV adoption will be slower and in fact may die on the vine after early adopters like us have their cars.

Many buyers made the decision to buy because of the incentive of the California rebate as well as the Federal rebate. For some people it is a perfectly reasonable decision to cancel a LEAF order if the full $5k is not available. I say that with the full awareness that the CCSE folks will maintain a rebate reservation waiting list, and I'm grateful for their level of organization and commitment to fair sequencing of the rebates. I don't RECOMMEND the cancellation of orders, since there will be a waiting list and there still MAY be releases of future funding, but I understand that the $5k may make all the difference to many families, and waiting lists put you in the long term position of waiting and hoping for a rebate for many more months after buying or leasing the car.

to thankyouOB, I say with respect that your opinion is likely based on your own level of financial security and the fact that you have an enviable April delivery date despite reserving your LEAF a month after some others who have "month of May" delivery advisories. Your stated opinion, I'm afraid, reminds me of the attitude I've seen on BMW forums of "If you're worried about the cost of replacement tires for a BMW, maybe you can't really afford to own one." It sounds pretty elitist.

I second what ttweed and Boomer23 are saying!!!!! If i missed out on the rebate because people that ordered ahead of my order on April 20, 2010 depleted the funds that is fair, but not people that ordered after me on April 20th and in 2011 and are getting their car in April. Just like Boomer23 I had a Amex issue and lost 5 hours where Nissan was not able to process my order, I should have been a Feb / March delivery. I know that certain people at Nissan are reading our forum, please deliver what you promised multiple times to us on the 600+ cars that are in transit.

 

[townsat]

I second what ttweed and Boomer23 are saying!!!!! If i missed out on the rebate because people that ordered ahead of my order on April 20, 2010 depleted the funds that is fair, but not people that ordered after me on April 20th and in 2011 and are getting their car in April. Just like Boomer23 I had a Amex issue and lost 5 hours where Nissan was not able to process my order, I should have been a Feb / March delivery. I know that certain people at Nissan are reading our forum, please deliver what you promised multiple times to us on the 600+ cars that are in transit.

I'll third it. I also find it less than pleasant that the Nissan CS reps, who are normally very helpful, act like this isn't really going on when I've brought it up to them. Last time I checked, there were 15+ people just on the spreadsheet who ordered in January or February and will be getting their cars before me, when I ordered in September. I'm sure the real number is many many times that. It just contradicts their early claims that the system was first-come, first-served.

 

[thankyouOB]

I didnt expect the view I expressed to be popular. There is a lot of entitlement going around in some of the comments.

Nissan is not responsible for the CA rebate program. Whether they stocked up cars to customers in Japan to meet rebate deadlines in Japan is a separate issue that I have read about on this blog but I read lots of things on blogs that turn out to be true and false.

I see some folks complaining who have a very good deal:
-free etec charger-2k
-free upgrade to level 3 quick charger-$750
-federal tax credit-$7500

just because they dont have a great deal--a guarantee of 5k back from CA.
and even with that, there is every likelihood that they will still get a rebate perhaps as much as 3-4k.

There is also a lot of uninformed speculation and character attacks that flow around here. You want evidence? Read the Santa Monica dealer post.
To question my motives because my May reserve got me a January order date is BS. To speculate that I am bucks up, is just that--speculation.
The reason I didn't reserve in April was because I had been out of work for 2.5 years (didnt have a job to commute to) and was unsure if the job that I was about to start would last.
Regardless, I sent in my money in May and was ready to order when the Nissan webtool lit up in January. To compare that circumstance to some bratty BMW owner commenting on the cost of tires - no matter how many respectfuls you add to the comment - is more of the same BS.

I have no guarantee that my car is coming in April. I have to make a decision just as you do about whether the reasons I want the car are sufficient. My reasons are it is green and doesn't add to air pollution, blood-for-oil war mongering, or the fossil-fuel robber barons.

I got solar in 2008 and will fuel my car with that. The tragedy in Japan with nuclear power just reinforces the reason I want this car. But I am not attacking those who are going to plug in and create more electric power needs.

Be the change you want to see.
Please think before you write and attack folks. They may not be the straw men whom you imagine them to be.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Nissan is not responsible for the CA rebate program.

And this is the point you seem hung up on. A point nobody made, yet you seem to pivot around.

I hold California to their commitments, and Nissan to their own. They are unrelated. Nissan did not promise I would be rebate-eligible. They did promise that reservation sequence or order sequence are related to delivery dates. If Nissan does not honor the order dates, and hands out cars in random order, I would be disappointed in them and less likely to enjoy the benefit of reserving/ordering as early as I could.

I would also point out that the CA rebate represents a full THIRD of the lease cost of the car. It's not trivial icing on the cake, but the very thing that makes the LEAF so economically advantageous.

 

[ttweed]

I'm not buying the "selected orphan spots" theory either. All the options are Port-installed, so you have three trim levels and some colors. I have what is likely the most common configuration in California: Blue eTec. If such an orphan opened up, why would they reach into the 2011 orders to fill it? Makes no sense.

Except your place and vehicle is probably already assigned. So if everyone moves forward to reflect an open car Nissan would have to reassign 500+ cars to different people to keep the order. Not going to happen.

I'm with GroundLoop. I don't understand this argument. Anyone who does not yet have a VIN assigned could be slipped into the canceled production spot with a few keystrokes on a computer, it seems to me. Why do you think "reassigning" 500+ cars would be necessary? Until a customer is matched with a VIN, there is no "assignment," and until the chassis moves down the line and is configured and painted, it could be anybody's model. I'm just not following this "front row ticket" analogy--it doesn't seem to apply well in this situation. You said "Just as if a block of front row tickets comes available the box office does not try to move everyone a few seats forward. They just sell the tickets to the next one at the window..." The problem with that as I see it is that all of us without a VIN assigned are still standing at the ticket window-- none of us have been seated yet. Maybe I don't understand the Nissan production process thoroughly, but I don't see how it would be that tough to have an "orphaned" order go to the next person in line who ordered that model/color and who's car was not yet in production.

TT

 

[smkettner]

I'm not buying the "selected orphan spots" theory either. All the options are Port-installed, so you have three trim levels and some colors. I have what is likely the most common configuration in California: Blue eTec. If such an orphan opened up, why would they reach into the 2011 orders to fill it? Makes no sense.

Except your place and vehicle is probably already assigned. So if everyone moves forward to reflect an open car Nissan would have to reassign 500+ cars to different people to keep the order. Not going to happen.

I'm with GroundLoop. I don't understand this argument. Anyone who does not yet have a VIN assigned could be slipped into the canceled production spot with a few keystrokes on a computer, it seems to me. Why do you think "reassigning" 500+ cars would be necessary? Until a customer is matched with a VIN, there is no "assignment," and until the chassis moves down the line and is configured and painted, it could be anybody's model. I'm just not following this "front row ticket" analogy--it doesn't seem to apply well in this situation. You said "Just as if a block of front row tickets comes available the box office does not try to move everyone a few seats forward. They just sell the tickets to the next one at the window..." The problem with that as I see it is that all of us without a VIN assigned are still standing at the ticket window-- none of us have been seated yet. Maybe I don't understand the Nissan production process thoroughly, but I don't see how it would be that tough to have an "orphaned" order go to the next person in line who ordered that model/color and who's car was not yet in production. TT

Just because CW is not open yet displaying your VIN does not mean your car is not running down the line with a VIN or production number or even already in transit. Just because your VIN from CW comes alive as the car unloads in the USA does not mean you were just then assigned the car. I think your spot in line was decided when you have the Month assigned a full 6 to 8 weeks before you are allowed to see the VIN. My Month was assigned 5 weeks ago and I assume I have a VIN even though CW is not open to display it. If I was to cancel my order today my car and VIN would be given at the next round of assignments, not to someone that already has a VIN and build date. If my car was reassigned to the next person then all 600 cars on that ship in transit would need to also be reassigned to keep them in order.