Marketing Suggestions for Nissan: Let's Get Serious

[SanDust]

Must be freezing in hell because I agree completely with evnow. The only thing I'd add is that Nissan needs to get the price down. Compared to last year in CA the Leaf is almost $5K more. I think you can see the effect of this price increase in the unit sales. Also the Leaf is designed to be basic transportation. As an not especially nice car price becomes critical. Hopefully when the Leaf is produced here we'll see lower prices. Otherwise we may be seeing looking at current demand as simply demand, and that would not be good.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

maybe Nissan needs to take a hint from Toyota when they introduced the Prius C..

What would a LEAF cost sans NAV,backup camera etc. could we get something that is $30,000 before incentives? Bet that would sell

 

[GRA]

That way, if you live in Minnesota and you want to know how far you can count on the car to transport you and your family in the depths of February, it will be right there on the sticker, no need to page through the owners manual in hopes of finding that (currently non-existent) information.

Whatever number EPA prints will be easily overpowered by some idiot "average" driver.

Of course it can be, the question is what percentage of drivers is this happening to? If it's 5% that's one thing, but if it's 50, 75 or 90%? Does anybody believe that Nissan should be claiming that the Leaf has a 100 mile range, when we all know that's possible but impractical for the average driver who's not trying to see how efficiently they can drive? Most people don't drive like Leaffan, nightrider, or Paul Scott, they drive more like TomT: "the lower of 5 mph over the speed limit, or the speed that will allow me to get to my destination". Except that Joe/Josephine average driver doesn't use that last clause, drives with under-inflated tires, jackrabbits from stoplights to slam on their brakes at the one at the next block, and hauls around 300 lb. of junk that never leaves their trunk. All this despite almost 40 years of the government informing people what steps they can take to improve their mileage. There's a slight spike of interest every time gas prices rise significantly, then when they sink down again it's back to old habits. It would probably take $10/gal. gas for these habits to become ingrained, and I'm not even sure that is high enough.

Rather than the existing situation, where we find owners discovering shortly after they bought the car that the range claimed by Nissan and other makers is hedged about with qualifications, and is unlikely to be attainable with average driving.

I think EPA's 73 miles range is a very good ball park. City driving in mild climates gets you more than that - winter freeway driving in cold places gets you less than that.

The problem is the range itself - not what the EPA or Nissan says what it is. If we doubled the battery - there would be fewer complaints about lower than expected range. That will happen in some years ... (unless you want to shell out 10s of k more for Model S).

The EPA's 73 mile range is a good ballpark when new. It's certainly not a good ballpark when used - just ask azdre, who is essentially operating a battery that has reached its end-of-life capacity.

We all agree that range will become less of an issue once batteries get cheaper, but batteries getting cheaper depends on sales volume. If no one but the geek/green early adopters buys EVs now, batteries aren't going to see the economies of scale needed.

 

[Herm]

Its not range (when new).. lots of people whine about it but they seem to get their commute done anyways... but it does take a thinking person to buy a 73 mile car, many buyers are driven by emotions and will get stuck on that, so maybe range is the issue to reach the vast unwashed masses.

 

[TomT]

If you look at what such packages typically cost on cars where it is optional, you'd save about $3K at retail... I don't think that would be enough to make that much of a difference in sales...

maybe Nissan needs to take a hint from Toyota when they introduced the Prius C.. What would a LEAF cost sans NAV,backup camera etc. could we get something that is $30,000 before incentives? Bet that would sell

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think u wrong on that but anyway take the $3k and the $7.5k and state incentives which is about $3k and now u got a car that is $24k outt he door. Add $700 for QC and that is very competitive with basic commuter cars

If you look at what such packages typically cost on cars where it is optional, you'd save about $3K at retail... I don't think that would be enough to make that much of a difference in sales...

maybe Nissan needs to take a hint from Toyota when they introduced the Prius C.. What would a LEAF cost sans NAV,backup camera etc. could we get something that is $30,000 before incentives? Bet that would sell

 

[dgpcolorado]

maybe Nissan needs to take a hint from Toyota when they introduced the Prius C..

What would a LEAF cost sans NAV,backup camera etc. could we get something that is $30,000 before incentives? Bet that would sell

I'm not going to try to dig up the references, but I thought I read that the 2013 LEAF would have three models, with the addition of a basic "S" version. That one would be missing some of the gadgets that now come with the SV and SL, such as the nav system—I'd love to dispense with that. However, another of the gadgets to be eliminated on the S model was cruise control, and that's something I use a lot and would be loathe to lose. Tradeoffs...

 

[GRA]

maybe Nissan needs to take a hint from Toyota when they introduced the Prius C..

What would a LEAF cost sans NAV,backup camera etc. could we get something that is $30,000 before incentives? Bet that would sell

I'm not going to try to dig up the references, but I thought I read that the 2013 LEAF would have three models, with the addition of a basic "S" version. That one would be missing some of the gadgets that now come with the SV and SL, such as the nav system—I'd love to dispense with that. However, another of the gadgets to be eliminated on the S model was cruise control, and that's something I use a lot and would be loathe to lose. Tradeoffs...

Same here. I've managed to survive 3+ decades of driving a car without a GPS or a backup camera, but given the usual lack of legroom for me in a Japanese car I want cruise control, even in a car that can't drive more than about an hour on the freeway.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

http://www.triplepundit.com/2012/07/nissan-push-leaf-mass-market/

We’re making a massive investment and this is going to be a big volume line. It’s not a niche model, it’s a family car and that’s what will make it successful. [Electric cars] have to do what normal cars do – that’s sometimes forgotten with other electric vehicles and marketing that’s out there.

 

[nhalber]

I don't expect any changes for another 8 to 12 months.

There will be no changes to 2013 model period. I am not interested to trade my current model and I do not see thousands and thousands customers waiting for new model. Production run of current model just about 40K and no competition in the segment.

No competition? It sure looks like the Ford Focus EV will.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I don't expect any changes for another 8 to 12 months.

There will be no changes to 2013 model period. I am not interested to trade my current model and I do not see thousands and thousands customers waiting for new model. Production run of current model just about 40K and no competition in the segment.

No competition? It sure looks like the Ford Focus EV will.

i used to think the same but now that DCFC is available in my area and i have used it, i find that an EV without a quick charge station will NEVER have a decent niche in the market

 

[DANandNAN]

i used to think the same but now that DCFC is available in my area and i have used it, i find that an EV without a quick charge station will NEVER have a decent niche in the market

Most Leafs have never "quick charged" and they seem to be doing fine. Even those Leafs that have "QC", most haven't done it very often. And, "QC" still means the Leaf can't go faster than 40MPH on a highway trip.

The FFE has better range than the Leaf (now & probably even better in the future thanks to the FFE's TMS) and a 6.6 charger (20MPHC during lunch break). Most folks don't drive more than 30-40 miles per day. It's all about tradeoffs and I'm guessing a lot of folks would trade their rarely used "QC" port for a TMS - if not now probably after they loose some bars.

Edit - Oops, that posted before I was done and couldn't edit before running out but wanted to say that I do think the "QC" port will be a draw for customers. I think that it'll probably draw in more customers than the fast battery degradation issues will push away. Of course that's provided that Leaf's stop loosing capacity before they reach 35%+ lost. And, if Nissan adds TMS then the FFE advantage goes away.

 

[StrangerTides]

Here in FL I'm usually seeing a Volt once a week these days (different colors, so not all the same one!) but as for Leafs, I've still only seen three in the wild - four if you count the one owned by FPL (the power utility). What this suggests to me is the average buyer is willing to pay 40K for an "EV" if they still have the ICE option if they want it for the range.

As for me, I don't want to carry an engine around with me if I'm only using electricity, and the Leaf's range is fine for me, but I can't justify paying 38K for it! Seriously, price is the big issue - I was ready to buy last year if the up-front cost had been closer to the 33K originally estimated. Something's got to give, probably several things - a little savings from the Tennessee plant, a little less profit for Nissan, and yes, push for the 7500 to be an instant rebate. All this would be far more effective than the cleverest marketing, in my opinion.

And no, before someone suggests it again: I don't want the Mitsubishi - sure, it's cheaper, but the range? i don't think so!

 

[Deleted member 1622]

I drove a Ford Focus EV the other day just for kicks on a test drive. I have to say it has nothing on the Leaf, though I still like the car and how it drove. It definitely has less trunk and rear-seat space (battery is in the middle like the Volt), and I do not believe that it has a longer range than the Leaf (supposedly fully charged, the car had 58 miles left on the test drive). Anytime you have estimated ranges within a few miles of each other, I think you just have to call it statistically even, given the huge variability that has already been discussed here.

I do like the Focus' analog speedometer, some styling things in the interior, but overall driving experience is much the same as the Leaf, and the MSRP of $41,xxx left my eyes popping (how are they going to sell more of those than the Leaf when it's so much more expensive?)

There's an interesting thing that the dealer told me, though, that is very different from the Leaf: He said I could get a $7,500 instant rebate on the lease, and THEN take another $7,500 rebate when buying the car three years later. This is a total of $15K off the car! I am skeptical, but he said he checked it out and confirmed it. Is this just Ford taking a hit on it to boost sales? If anyone has info on this, please put it out there.

Josh

 

[thankyouOB]

There's an interesting thing that the dealer told me, though, that is very different from the Leaf: He said I could get a $7,500 instant rebate on the lease, and THEN take another $7,500 rebate when buying the car three years later. This is a total of $15K off the car! I am skeptical, but he said he checked it out and confirmed it. Is this just Ford taking a hit on it to boost sales? If anyone has info on this, please put it out there.

Josh

if that is true, I will buy one today!

 

[Deleted member 1622]

I think Nissan, and all OEMs, should test the car under ideal conditions and tell people that if you drive with extreme efficiency, you can obtain XXX miles per charge. Customers need to be educated on hypermiling and how it works. I do a cursory explanation for my customers, but will probably improve on that.

Sell the car honestly, but explain what the safest, most efficient driving style is and encourage them to strive for it. If they know this up front, they can't complain later. Battery degradation, of course, needs to be measured, but that can only happen when the same driving style is employed for the specific test car.

I welcome a discussion on this subject since it's incredibly important.

Paul -
My feeling is that when you try to "educate" Americans on something, especially on something they plan to spend a lot of money on, many (not all) will see it as "lecturing."

I have to agree with those that say the Leaf must be sold as a car that you can drive "normally" (i.e. over-aggressively). Personally I am on board with efficient driving, but if this car will ever get into the 30-40K units sold per year category, it will have to sell to those who don't think that boosting their avg. miles/kwH is a fun game to play each day. Maybe once they own it, they will get there, but most probably aren't thinking about it when buying (remember, folks, before I get flamed, that I'm talking about FUTURE buyers who today aren't thinking about owning one, not those of us who have one in our garages already).

Mostly people want 100% honesty from car dealers, that goes a very long way. So estimating on the low end of ranges rather than quoting ideal numbers just makes sense.

Josh

P.S. -- Sometimes when I feel down about the Leaf sales, I find solace in the Prius numbers of a decade ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only 21,000 Prii sold in the U.S. in its first two years (the Leaf should be able to break that, even with anemic sales). It didn't hit 50K sold until 2004, it's 5th year on the market. I know, I know, not comparable cars. But it's good to remind ourselves that new technology is feared before it is embraced, and that it could take a full 5 years.

 

[DANandNAN]

I'm guessing that the dealer is wrong about the $7,500 + $7,500. But, the thing about American cars is they have BIG hold backs and sticker is usually much higher than invoice. So, even though the FFE is $3k more now, it'll probably be much more comparable if you compare "deals".

The 58 miles remaining means nothing if it was on a test drive vehicle because it's based off of whoever drove it and how they drove it before you sat down. Also, the fully charged range difference will probably be much larger in a year or two if the '13 Leaf doesn't add TMS.

 

[GRA]

I'm guessing that the dealer is wrong about the $7,500 + $7,500. But, the thing about American cars is they have BIG hold backs and sticker is usually much higher than invoice. So, even though the FFE is $3k more now, it'll probably be much more comparable if you compare "deals".

The 58 miles remaining means nothing if it was on a test drive vehicle because it's based off of whoever drove it and how they drove it before you sat down. Also, the fully charged range difference will probably be much larger in a year or two if the '13 Leaf doesn't add TMS.

That last would be the big advantage for me between the Leaf and the FFE (or any car with an active TMS). For a car used primarily for commuting, consistent range is more important than maximum range. It's worth a couple of grand to many people, especially mainstream drivers, AOTBE.

I like the Coda for the same reason, as the LiFePo4 battery has a much slower degradation rate than the LMO battery in the Leaf. Whether it will meet Coda's claimed 7% loss in 100,000 miles I have no idea, but I'd be perfectly happy if it were two or even three times as much as long as I could count on that. Which is why I think capacity warranties and battery leasing will be needed before BEVs go mainstream.

Re the FFE, holdbacks and room to haggle, I doubt very much that there will be any significant space; the production volume is much too low. But I don't see any way that dealers will be able to sell FFEs at any markup over invoice.

 

[PaulScott]

I drove a Ford Focus EV the other day just for kicks on a test drive. I have to say it has nothing on the Leaf, though I still like the car and how it drove. It definitely has less trunk and rear-seat space (battery is in the middle like the Volt), and I do not believe that it has a longer range than the Leaf (supposedly fully charged, the car had 58 miles left on the test drive). Anytime you have estimated ranges within a few miles of each other, I think you just have to call it statistically even, given the huge variability that has already been discussed here.

I do like the Focus' analog speedometer, some styling things in the interior, but overall driving experience is much the same as the Leaf, and the MSRP of $41,xxx left my eyes popping (how are they going to sell more of those than the Leaf when it's so much more expensive?)

There's an interesting thing that the dealer told me, though, that is very different from the Leaf: He said I could get a $7,500 instant rebate on the lease, and THEN take another $7,500 rebate when buying the car three years later. This is a total of $15K off the car! I am skeptical, but he said he checked it out and confirmed it. Is this just Ford taking a hit on it to boost sales? If anyone has info on this, please put it out there.

Josh

There is no additional $7,500 "rebate" from the feds. CA gives $2,500 as a rebate, and some other states have a mixture of state incentives, but the only state I'm aware of with a $7,500 incentive is West Virginia and theirs is a tax credit against state income tax if I remember correctly.

So, depending on what state you are in, chances are very high your dealer lied to you.

 

[adric22]

I don't buy the claim of the $7,500 being taken twice. These dealers don't know what they are talking about. When I leased our Chevy Volt the dealer tried to tell me that we would get the tax credit ourselves at the end of the lease. I knew that was baloney and called them out on it. Eventually after checking with the leasing company they agreed with me. The thing is, they probably weren't "lying" as much as they just didn't know and didn't care. After all, it would be 3 years before I would find out that they were wrong and I'm sure the salesmen knew he wouldn't be around 3 years from now so why not just say what sounds good?