Lake Hodges Pumped Storage Power Generation Goes Online

[jcesare]

More clean energy to power my LEAF :mrgreen:

The first of two 28,000-horsepower pump turbines at the San Diego County Water Authority’s Lake Hodges Pump Storage Project has begun operations. The facility is now available to help meet the region’s water and energy demands, by providing 20,000 acre-feet of emergency water storage and up to 20 megawatts (MW) of electricity for the region, enough power for 13,000 homes.

http://www.sdcwa.org/lake-hodges-project-begins-pumped-storage-and-power-generation-operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sandiegohealth.org/water/sdcwaterauthority/esp/olivenhainhodgesfs07_04.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[wsbca]

More clean energy to power my LEAF

Mmmm....not really. They pump the water uphill at night and let it flow back down during the day - no clean power is "generated", it all depends on the source of the power they use to pump it uphill, and with efficiency losses, we're using more of whatever comprises that mix than if we used it directly. It's just a load balancer.

 

[jcesare]

More clean energy to power my LEAF

Mmmm....not really. They pump the water uphill at night and let it flow back down during the day - no clean power is "generated", it all depends on the source of the power they use to pump it uphill, and with efficiency losses, we're using more of whatever comprises that mix than if we used it directly. It's just a load balancer.

In general off peak power is generated by the most efficient power plants on the grid. Reducing peak demand will reduce the need to import costly "dirty" power or firing up inefficient peak plants.

 

[wsbca]

More clean energy to power my LEAF

Mmmm....not really. They pump the water uphill at night and let it flow back down during the day - no clean power is "generated", it all depends on the source of the power they use to pump it uphill, and with efficiency losses, we're using more of whatever comprises that mix than if we used it directly. It's just a load balancer.

In general off peak power is generated by the most efficient power plants on the grid. Reducing peak demand will reduce the need to import costly "dirty" power or firing up inefficient peak plants.

Fair enough! (though I think it would be much more efficient to just shoot that relatively cleaner off peak power into your Leaf directly rather than pump water uphill with it).

 

[LeafinThePark]

In essence, what they have there is a battery to store excess capacity when you have it to provide electricity when needed. Pretty cool if you ask me. It not entirely unlike the idea of using EV batteries to take in excess electrons at night and have them available during the day by having the cars plugged into the grid.

Good point about efficiency however...wonder how the water system is compared to Li-Ion (or other) batteries.

 

[mitch672]

Now if they use excess Wind generated power to pump that water uphill during off peak times, they have essentially found a way to "store" that windpower, for a low cost. Yes, they will not get a large percentage of it back, but some is better than none, many windfarms have to be shutdown because of no place to store/use the energy.

 

[DaveEV]

Found some pics of the construction here: http://www.walshgroup.com/portfolio/heavy+civil/dams/olivenhain-hodges-esp-pumped-storage-projects.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gotta like pumped storage! Wonder if we had it online during the blackout if it might have been able to help...

Anyone see how many MWh it can store?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

its a HUGE waste of energy but without V2G, massive power storage options etc, 100% of it will be lost. this might only have a 10-15% return but its better than zero

the Pac NW does the same thing. we simply dont have a steady enough demand to cover peak loads nor can we throttle back production to save it for a "non-rainy" day either.

feast or famine. its hard to understand because we are blinded by modern appliances and our "right now" attitude but in the old days, settlers would lose a significant amount of stored food to rot and rodents. but even if they lost half, the half remaining was enough to keep them from starving during the winter and the half lost was definitely not enough of a deterrent to keep them from stockpiling it in the first place. alternatives?

http://greeneconomypost.com/wind-turbines-shut-pacific-northwest-15566.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i be honest with ya. EVs local home grown energy that does not need the middle east's help etc. one would think we could manage it just a smidge (oops sorry) a bit better than we are.

 

[derkraut]

Now if they use excess Wind generated power to pump that water uphill during off peak times, they have essentially found a way to "store" that windpower, for a low cost. Yes, they will not get a large percentage of it back, but some is better than none, many windfarms have to be shutdown because of no place to store/use the energy.

This could be a good plan----except that the wind almost NEVER blows from 6PM to around 9AM here in San Diego, which is our off-peak time.

 

[Nekota]

Found some pics of the construction here: http://www.walshgroup.com/portfolio/heavy+civil/dams/olivenhain-hodges-esp-pumped-storage-projects.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gotta like pumped storage! Wonder if we had it online during the blackout if it might have been able to help...

Anyone see how many MWh it can store?

According to San Diego County Water Authority it can produce 40 MW during water transfers through a 120" diameter pipe some 1.25 miles with a elevation delta of 770 feet. I measured 560 feet (Olivenhain 880 ft - L.Hodges 320 ft) with Google maps so curious to see if they forgot to correct for the altitude of Lake Hodges at 320 feet.

A news release from 14 September also mentions the 770 foot downhill distance and the project has turned on one 20MW pump turbine. Details at http://www.sdcwa.org/lake-hodges-project-begins-pumped-storage-and-power-generation-operations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone want to calculate the water velocity at 20MW power level at 770 feet ?

The cost is $196 million or $5/Watt and the storage capacity is 20,000 acre-feet.

edit : add additional reference -> http://sandiegohealth.org/water/sdcwaterauthority/esp/olivenhainhodgesfs07_04.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[jcesare]

The cost is $196 million or $5/Watt

The primary purpose of the project is not power generation so I don't see this as relevant or the actual cost of power generation. One can argue the actual cost was the addition of the generators and construction costs specific to power generation. The rest of it was going to be built whether it generated electricity or not.

The $196 million Lake Hodges project is a key part of the Water Authority’s $1.5 billion Emergency Storage Project, a system of reservoirs, pipelines and pumping stations designed to ensure that up to a six-month supply of locally stored water will be available for the San Diego region if a disaster or other event interrupts imported water deliveries.

 

[Nekota]

The cost is $196 million or $5/Watt

The primary purpose of the project is not power generation so I don't see this as relevant or the actual cost of power generation. One can argue the actual cost was the addition of the generators and construction costs specific to power generation. The rest of it was going to be built whether it generated electricity or not.

The $196 million Lake Hodges project is a key part of the Water Authority’s $1.5 billion Emergency Storage Project, a system of reservoirs, pipelines and pumping stations designed to ensure that up to a six-month supply of locally stored water will be available for the San Diego region if a disaster or other event interrupts imported water deliveries.

It's a capital cost that is reasonable given the size and location of the project. Consider the Castaic (1200 MW built 1970) pumped storage plant improvement project for a ~1% generation and 3% pumping efficiency gain will cost $275 million or $3.50 per watt. I'm not a big fan of pumped storage since it consumes 20% of the electricity going into the storage system and competes with electric vehicle charging during off peak hours. For example 12 hours of pumping @48MW will lose enough power to charge 4,800 LEAFS to 24KWHr.

 

[garygid]

Power 13,000 homes with 20 MW?
That is only about 1.6 kW per home.

Is pumped storage as good as 50% efficient?

Do they pay the same as we (EV charging) do for their night-time electricity?

 

[mitch672]

everything you wanted to know about pumped storage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a type of hydroelectric power generation used by some power plants for load balancing. The method stores energy in the form of water, pumped from a lower elevation reservoir to a higher elevation. Low-cost off-peak electric power is used to run the pumps. During periods of high electrical demand, the stored water is released through turbines to produce electric power. Although the losses of the pumping process makes the plant a net consumer of energy overall, the system increases revenue by selling more electricity during periods of peak demand, when electricity prices are highest. Pumped storage is the largest-capacity form of grid energy storage now available."

Its a net consumer of energy, they get LESS out than they put in, but what they put in would be otherwise wasted, or unused. The big payback is for high demand daytime power, where they don't have to fire up another coal (or other polluting) plant to meet the demand

Gary, in general the utilitys themselves run these plants, so they are not paying anything for the power, and its just a gigantic capacitor they release during the day to meet peak demand.

 

[Herm]

energy storage is an essential part of wind power generation... otherwise it would be unusable due to the inconsistency of wind. Usually without storage you can have up to 20% wind power as part of the total power generation... more than that and the grid becomes unstable. You also need long term backup, usually in the form of NG peaking plants that fire up at a moments notice.

If they are using the water for other purposes then they must be shuttling the water between two reservoirs..

 

[jcesare]

If they are using the water for other purposes then they must be shuttling the water between two reservoirs..

That is eactly what they are doing. The primary reason for the construction was to connect two major reservoirs so there are additional water resources available in case of drought, emergency or natural disaster. The two reservoirs get their water from different sources (AZ and No Cal). Now water authorites have a better tool to manged costs because they are not forced to buy all their water for each location from only one source. The power generation part of the construction was a side benefit. My point was you can't say it costs $5 per watt by using the cost of the project because the project was going to be built anyway, regardless of any generating capacity. Because there is a 700 ft. differential between reservoirs, it made the power generation possible.

 

[electricfuture]

energy storage is an essential part of wind power generation... otherwise it would be unusable due to the inconsistency of wind.

Excellent point! Water level monitors could be tied to the Dispatch office showing the available energy which they could access at the flip of a switch instead of using gas turbine peaking units. This is far more efficient than gas turbines which are maintenance intensive (varies with gas quality), gas delivery system, and require non-renewable resource to operate and then emitting a green house gas. Everybody wins except SEMPRA/SDG&E.

Pump storage has been used in the Rockies for many years as they have the advantage of built in elevation changes and water from the snowmelt. In San Diego County the high country just west of the Imperial County Water District looks like a good location. The Sunrise Powerlink would actually be sending a re-newable energy source during peak times.

 

[Herm]

article about a next generation advanced coal burning plant.. $4.66 per watt

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/utilities-duke-edwardsport-idUSN1E79J20S20111020" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Oct 20 (Reuters) - Duke Energy Corp raised the cost estimate for its Indiana coal-gasification project a third time on Thursday, by 9.6 percent to $2.98 billion, excluding financing costs, the company said in a filing.

Duke said the higher price tag, up from $2.72 billion, or $2.88 billion with financing, was due to unfavorable productivity trends, higher material needs and construction changes at the 618-MW Edwardsport integrated gasification combined cycle (IGCC) plant which is 95 percent complete.

The IGCC process converts coal into a synthetic gas which can be stripped of sulfur, mercury and particulate matter before being used to fuel a combustion turbine to produce electricity. The process also allows for carbon dioxide to be captured before the fuel is burned."

 

[UkrainianKozak]

The process also allows for carbon dioxide to be captured before the fuel is burned.

That does not make any sense...
CO2 is a direct product of burning the fuel, how can you capture it before???

 

[davewill]

The process also allows for carbon dioxide to be captured before the fuel is burned.

That does not make any sense...
CO2 is a direct product of burning the fuel, how can you capture it before???

Perhaps they are capturing carbon during the gassification process, which would have the effect of lowering CO2 emissions when the fuel is burned.