L3 Charger...is it worth the $700?

[LEAFguy]

Peter, there are currently over 3,000 EVSE locations in California. They will be updated to J1772 standard starting this fall. Here is an article with more info. These will be L1 or L2.

According to the EV Project, new infrastructure will be primarily L2, but each major metro area in the project will receive 40-50 L3 stations. Keep in mind this does not include any other L3 stations that may also be installed by other entities. All J1772 stations will work with your LEAF and they will be limited to 3.3kw as that is what the onboard LEAF charger supports.

 

[smkettner]

Peter, there are currently over 3,000 EVSE locations in California. They will be updated to J1772 standard starting this fall. Here is an article with more info. These will be L1 or L2.

According to the EV Project, new infrastructure will be primarily L2, but each major metro area in the project will receive 40-50 L3 stations. Keep in mind this does not include any other L3 stations that may also be installed by other entities. All J1772 stations will work with your LEAF and they will be limited to 3.3kw as that is what the onboard LEAF charger supports.

All the more reason to skip L3 IMO. The only reason to get L3 it would seem is if you really plan to travel long distance.

 

[mycomya]

The way the L3 charger option is being offered is heatbreaking...

I'm willing to reject luxury to get the cheapest EV possible. The cost of a new car is quite a reach for us but I'm very, very attracted to the idea of living free of gasoline, tailpipe fumes, etc. I drive 12,000 miles a year commuting a total of about 60 mi/day.

And choosing the SV isn't really so hard... Frankly, the photovoltaic solar panel spoiler seems like a vanity option. A rear view monitor seems unnecessary for a car the size of a Leaf. Fog lights aren't critical. Automatic on/off headlights would be nice, but not that big of a deal. Cargo cover? meh. Finally, my parking spot is a carport, so I'd have no use for a homelink universal transceiver. SV it is for me!

But whether intended or not, I expected the car to have 80% charging in 30 minutes. To me, this does seem critical and an important aspect of 'future-proofing' the car, as Gavin notes. Occasionally, I'd like to take it into the city (80mi) and conveniently charge it there, for my return trip.

So now the question is, on a tight budget, is the L3 charger worth >$1750 (incl. taxes)?

Its possibly a deal breaker!

If the L3 charger were a $700 option for the SV model, I'd go for it. But at this point, suddenly the choice seems to be either 1) A top-of-the-model-line car that breaks my budget with (largely) unnecessary add-ons or 2) A car that will most certainly suffer premature obsolescence (and limited local use).

:?

 

[LEAFfan]

The way the L3 charger option is being offered is heatbreaking...

I'm willing to reject luxury to get the cheapest EV possible. The cost of a new car is quite a reach for us but I'm very, very attracted to the idea of living free of gasoline, tailpipe fumes, etc. I drive 12,000 miles a year commuting a total of about 60 mi/day.

And choosing the SV isn't really so hard... Frankly, the photovoltaic solar panel spoiler seems like a vanity option. A rear view monitor seems unnecessary for a car the size of a Leaf. Fog lights aren't critical. Automatic on/off headlights would be nice, but not that big of a deal. Cargo cover? meh. Finally, my parking spot is a carport, so I'd have no use for a homelink universal transceiver. SV it is for me!

But whether intended or not, I expected the car to have 80% charging in 30 minutes. To me, this does seem critical and an important aspect of 'future-proofing' the car, as Gavin notes. Occasionally, I'd like to take it into the city (80mi) and conveniently charge it there, for my return trip.

So now the question is, on a tight budget, is the L3 charger worth >$1750 (incl. taxes)?

Its possibly a deal breaker!

At this point, suddenly the choice seems to be either 1) A top-of-the-model-line car that breaks your budget with (largely) unnecessary add-ons or 2) A car that will most certainly suffer premature obsolescence (and limited local use).:?

First of all, the solar panel will keep your aux battery charged and possibly run a fan to keep the car cooler when parked, so I don't see it as a vanity item. Automatic headlights aren't a big deal? Do you know how many times I've driven at night and forgot to turn them on because of all the night lighting? I've also seen MANY drivers driving without them after dark and you can barely see them sometimes. It is a very dangerous situation; could be life or death. So I'm listing that feature as 'very necessary'. What does having a carport have to do with not using a regular cell phone text message telling you that you forgot to plug it in, that it is done charging, or it got disconnected somewhow, like at public charging stations? You can still use this feature if you plug it in at your carport.
I agree with you though, that it should be an option on both models.

 

[prberg]

The way the L3 charger option is being offered is heatbreaking...
What does having a carport have to do with not using a regular cell phone text message telling you that you forgot to plug it in, that it is done charging, or it got disconnected somewhow, like at public charging stations? You can still use this feature if you plug it in at your carport.
I agree with you though, that it should be an option on both models.

I'm pretty sure that both models will have the ability to communicate with the car via a cell phone. That is the CARWINGS feature. The 'Homelink' system, which is only on the more expensive model, is that system that lets you operate your garage door and turn on lights in your garage or home (I believe).

I agree that L3 should be available on all trim levels.

-Peter

 

[smkettner]

Well with level 2 you will need to stay in the city for a time.
Then hit another level 2 half way home while you sit down and enjoy a nice dinner.

There will be times that level 2 could prove inconvenient.
Maybe swap cars with a friend for the day in the city?

 

[LEAFfan]

The way the L3 charger option is being offered is heatbreaking...
What does having a carport have to do with not using a regular cell phone text message telling you that you forgot to plug it in, that it is done charging, or it got disconnected somewhow, like at public charging stations? You can still use this feature if you plug it in at your carport.
I agree with you though, that it should be an option on both models.

I'm pretty sure that both models will have the ability to communicate with the car via a cell phone. That is the CARWINGS feature. The 'Homelink' system, which is only on the more expensive model, is that system that lets you operate your garage door and turn on lights in your garage or home (I believe).

I agree that L3 should be available on all trim levels.

-Peter

Oops! LOL, you're right...I keep getting those confused. So that is an item not needed.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I understand you wanting. In on EVs Cheap. I am in the same position. The price is realistically Way more than i can afford. If i werent selling 2 cars i could not even think about buying 1. But at the same time the thought of never having to buy gas is more than i can resist.

I have an EV i commute with On a daily basis And i love it. But it's a 2 seater I cannot take my family anywhere In it. With the Leaf, It will become our primary car. Just too many good things To ignore.

Add to that comma Most of my charging will be L 1 So i am puzzled By your post. You drive 60 miles a day Which is well within The range Of the leaf. Even with just l 1 charging You would be fully charged In 8 hours. Drive home plugin Forget about it

Hard for me to understand how going somewhere away from home and sitting for 30 minutes is preferable

Yeah i do understand That options are nice. If i can get a good deal On L3 charging, i will do it. But then again, i might do it anyway knowing full well i might even use it more then a few times a year

The way the L3 charger option is being offered is heatbreaking...

I'm willing to reject luxury to get the cheapest EV possible. The cost of a new car is quite a reach for us but I'm very, very attracted to the idea of living free of gasoline, tailpipe fumes, etc. I drive 12,000 miles a year commuting a total of about 60 mi/day.

And choosing the SV isn't really so hard... Frankly, the photovoltaic solar panel spoiler seems like a vanity option. A rear view monitor seems unnecessary for a car the size of a Leaf. Fog lights aren't critical. Automatic on/off headlights would be nice, but not that big of a deal. Cargo cover? meh. Finally, my parking spot is a carport, so I'd have no use for a homelink universal transceiver. SV it is for me!

But whether intended or not, I expected the car to have 80% charging in 30 minutes. To me, this does seem critical and an important aspect of 'future-proofing' the car, as Gavin notes. Occasionally, I'd like to take it into the city (80mi) and conveniently charge it there, for my return trip.

So now the question is, on a tight budget, is the L3 charger worth >$1750 (incl. taxes)?

Its possibly a deal breaker!

If the L3 charger were a $700 option for the SV model, I'd go for it. But at this point, suddenly the choice seems to be either 1) A top-of-the-model-line car that breaks my budget with (largely) unnecessary add-ons or 2) A car that will most certainly suffer premature obsolescence (and limited local use).

:?

 

[sparky]

There is a MSRP on the L3. So it should be negotiable, just like the final cost of the car, right? So what do you suppose the invoice is on that...half?

According to my sources, the invoice on the L3 is $607.

I think Nissan could have better handled this L3 issue by eating some of the cost (perhaps they are) or actively working to get Ecotality to broadly subsidize it, even for those not qualifying for the free in-home charger. What I mean is, they want to popularize the notion of <30 min charges to overcome the range anxiety issue. They want L3 chargers up and down the West Coast. And perhaps they want the Tepco connector to become the default. The best way to do that is to have nearly every LEAF sold have L3 capability. If $700 seems a bit too pricey for early adopters on this forum, I can't imagine it will be an option for many of the rest of 2011 LEAF buyers.
I think at $200, most would go for it. At $700, those L3 chargers are gonna be lonely.

 

[mycomya]

Yeah i do understand That options are nice. If i can get a good deal On L3 charging, i will do it. But then again, i might do it anyway knowing full well i might even use it more then a few times a year

Interesting, we're in kind of the same boat. So L3 charging is worth $1700 or so to you? (Or maybe you've been planning on getting the SL all along...?)

It might be that I just don't understand the charging issues. 1) How long would it take to reach 80% charge using L2? Or, alternatively, 2) how much charge (or number of miles) would you add to the 'tank' by charging at L2 for 30 mins?

Is L2 half as quick as L3 (so answer (1) above is one hour, (2) is 40% (appx. 40 miles))?

Funny about the automatic headlights leaffan! Its not like the SV won't have any headlights at all! Right now, whether day or night, I switch on the headlights when I start the car and switch them off when I shut it off.As a safety issue, I appreciate day-running lights. If I didn't have auto lights, I'd just continue doing what I already do now... It's just a habit, and a very minor inconvenience.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Yeah i do understand That options are nice. If i can get a good deal On L3 charging, i will do it. But then again, i might do it anyway knowing full well i might even use it more then a few times a year

Interesting, we're in kind of the same boat. So L3 charging is worth $1700 or so to you? (Or maybe you've been planning on getting the SL all along...?)

It might be that I just don't understand the charging issues. 1) How long would it take to reach 80% charge using L2? Or, alternatively, 2) how much charge (or number of miles) would you add to the 'tank' by charging at L2 for 30 mins?

Is L2 half as quick as L3 (so answer (1) above is one hour, (2) is 40% (appx. 40 miles))?

Funny about the automatic headlights leaffan! Its not like the SV won't have any headlights at all! Right now, whether day or night, I switch on the headlights when I start the car and switch them off when I shut it off.As a safety issue, I appreciate day-running lights. If I didn't have auto lights, I'd just continue doing what I already do now... It's just a habit, and a very minor inconvenience.

With L2 charging rated 3.3 kilowatts your puttin back about 12 to 15 miles per hour. About half that rate 4 L1. Keep in mind The rate of return It is not linear. The greatest range increase Will happen in the first few hours Of charging. The typical 8 hour charging scenarios Will probably only run at full speed For about 6 hours Then slowly taper off To prevent overcharging.

We also have the disadvantage Of being early adopters. I fully Expect opportunity charging To be widely available In coming years. This means charging it work, Shopping centers, Excetera.

For some area it could be as little is 3 years. Other areas more than 10. But it will happen and i for 1 m not willing to sit on the sidelines and watch.

So yeah it's expensive. I still consider the alternative a price of i simply cannot pay

 

[EVDRIVER]

I never turn off my headlights, on my car they go off when the key is removed even if left on. Having them on in the day helps bad drivers see me.

 

[mycomya]

With L2 charging rated 3.3 kilowatts your putting back about 12 to 15 miles per hour. About half that rate 4 L1.

Ugh. So it is significantly worse than I thought.

I might rather pay an additional $1700 for the L3 without a solar-panel-energy-sucking back-up camera and other unnecessary SL gadgetry. I just want a well-built, functional EV with L3. I want modesty, with a certain ascetism, but not at the expense of quality or functionality. SV had that, assuming it had capacity or an option for L3...

 

[garygid]

On L2 the LEAF (8-hours for full charge) would take 6.4 hours for an 80% charge.

On L1, about 20 hours for 100%, or 16 hours for 80% charge.

Using Quick-Charge ("L3"), 80% charge in about 0.5 hours (30 minutes) ... a BIG difference.

In the San Diego area the EVProject is placing about 1000 L2 EVSEs, and about 50 "L3" charging stations.

If you are doing overnight charging at home (end-point charging), the L2 is probably what you will use, although those with "little" use of the LEAF could get by with the L1 EVSE included with the LEAF.

Those plannng on Range-Enhanced trips will most likely want the "L3" for their "way-point" charging.

 

[planet4ever]

On L2 the LEAF (8-hours for full charge) would take 6.4 hours for an 80% charge.

On L1, about 20 hours for 100%, or 16 hours for 80% charge.

So, Gary, apparently you disagree with Dave's assertion that the charge rate tapers off between 80% and 100%. I could believe that the tapering on L1 or L2 would not be as extreme as on L3, but it seems to me there is likely to be some.

If a 3.3kW charger really does deliver 3.3kWh to the battery in one hour (as opposed to pulling 3.3kWh from the wall in that time), and if the usable capacity of the battery is 24kWh, and if charging is linear up to 80%, then it stands to reason you can get that 80% charge in about 5 hours, 50 minutes.

That's a bit better than Gary's numbers, but not much. I agree that on a 160 mile round tip to the city you will want something faster, though here's an extreme possibility: If you manage to "hypermile" it and get 120 miles on the battery, and plan to get home with only a 10 mile reserve, you really only need a boost of 50/120 = 42%, and that you could get in three hours using my numbers.

 

[garygid]

Battery-Cell Management - a difficult task:

I was using "approximate" numbers for the charging times, since we really know nothing about how the LEAF will try to "balance" the cells. Presumably that can be done well only when the battery's most-charged cell approachs "full", and then charging would need to slow down CONSIDERABLY, while the less-full cells continue to charge but the already-full cell(s) (in some way) are not over-charged.

At present, we do not know how (or when) this is accomplished in the LEAF. Presumably it will require some sort of extended (several hours) of low, below-trickle charge rate (perhaps something like 400 watts), just a fraction of the normal L2 charge rate. This extra time might not be included in the "full-charge" times that we have been given. However, some sort of occasional "balancing" is usually important for maintaining the Pack's "maxmum-usable" capacity.

This "balancing" might be done whenever L1 or L2 charging is allowed to continue past the "battery-full" point, where the first cells are full, but others are not.

NOTE: It can also be done after charging is "complete", by moving charge from "full" cells to less-full cells.

Since the cells are apparently in pairs (two cells in parallel), with two sets of parallel cells in each of the 48 modules, there are 96 voltage points to monitor. The LEAF's Battery-Cell Management System (often called BMS) has not yet been discussed by Nissan, but it would usually monitor cell voltages to help keep any more-full cells from over-charging and any less-full cells from over-discharging. That is an important job, but not a trivial job to do well.

It might be possible that the "balancing" is only done in L2 charging, but there is no good reason why the L1 charging could not "balance" also, and really "must" do so, for those who charge only with L1.

The Quick-Charge ("L3") apparently stops without spending time trying to "balance", so the more conservate 80%-charge figure is given. In fact, with a well-balanced battery pack, there is no good reason that a Rapid-Charge could not get a 90%, or even 95% charge.

 

[smkettner]

It will also depend on if you live at the beach and travel uphill to the city and can about coast home
Or likwise if you live on a hill and can coast down to the city and need tip top charge to get back uphill

It will be interesting for sure

 

[EVDRIVER]

I use used opportunity charging almost every day on my EV and that's why want more than a 3.3kw charger, if the Leaf had a 6.6kw charger or higher I would not opt for L3 as an option, since it does not I will get the L3 port so I can possibly use an L3 charger on long runs or at a dealer. Another reason I will get the L3 is for potential resale value and to have the option for an outboard charger. IF I knew Nissan would offer and OEM 6.6 kw or higher charger in the next year and the cost was under $1200 I would skip L3 and apply the $700 to the upgrade of the charger. Of course I would like to have both L3 and 6.6 L2 if the L3 were free as it would be a nice to have with 6.6 charging but with the smaller charger I see it as a necessity. If I can make a PFC 40 work I will use that as an option since it is the best value and has a PFC 30 from factor and will provide 9.6kw charging. A PCF 50 is a bit expensive and not worth the extra 10A one may not be able to capture in most places plus the unit is much larger.

 

[garygid]

For me, without the "L3" QC, I am limited to about two one-hour periods of driving per day, and even that requires a suitable place for extended L2 charging.

However, with the L3 QC option (AND assuming enough suitable QC charging stations), I can envision something like six or seven 50-minute driving periods in a day, covering a lot more distance, allowing me to make a "trip" and not just "commute". Seattle and Phoenix would be within "roaming" range.

I will be able to "roam" throughout the LA and San Diego areas, not just remain "local", "tied" to my home dock.

 

[curtegg]

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I'm pretty sure that both models will have the ability to communicate with the car via a cell phone. That is the CARWINGS feature. The 'Homelink' system, which is only on the more expensive model, is that system that lets you operate your garage door and turn on lights in your garage or home (I believe).
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I bet it won't work with my garage opener. Its a 25yr old Sears single frequency model :lol: