Industry considering Tesla's free charging model now?

[gigglehertz]

I just took a survey from PlugInsights, and one question in particular caught my attention. All the questions were about my charging habits and how much I would be willing to pay for public charging. This particular question asked if I would pay more for an EV purchase/lease if it came with free lifetime charging. Given the apparent failure of Ecotality/Blink and others to turn a profit on public charging, are other auto companies considering the seemingly successful Tesla business model of charging upfront for free lifetime charging? As Tesla is so far ahead of the curve on this it could it be that perhaps somebody is thinking of taking Tesla up on their offer to license the technology and use of Superchargers in future EV's? Has anybody heard any rumours about this? The combo chargers don't seem to be materializing, and Chademo isn't exactly spreading like wildfire, and Tesla seems to have the only viable plan at the moment.

I'm assuming these surveys are commissioned by industry types. Just trying to read the tea leaves.

 

[smkettner]

I thought Nissan already had free charging at the dealers?
What we need is more range/battery to make L3 more effective.

 

[gigglehertz]

Not here, and not in a lot of places. And don't ask them where, cause they won't tell you. I'm glad they're doing it, but so far i don't really see any concrete plan. If they would release a map like Tesla did, I might have a better opinion. It seems more of a PR move, with the idea that somebody else will install L3 in other, more convenient places, which doesn't seem like it's happening to me. Maybe the thinking is it would just be easier to pay Tesla for access. Obviously not with the Leaf, but with a next gen followup.

 

[TomT]

And generally only available if your Leaf travel is during "business hours..."

Not here, and not in a lot of places.

 

[TonyWilliams]

And generally only available if your Leaf travel is during "business hours..."

Not here, and not in a lot of places.

And not necessarily free at privately owned Nissan dealerships. Even the ones who do offer free for now will quickly tire of the small, but very real, percentage of freeloaders / campers / squatters at their charging spot.

 

[OrientExpress]

are other auto companies considering the seemingly successful Tesla business model of charging upfront for free lifetime charging?

How much do you think Ev owners will pay upfront for free charging?

 

[TonyWilliams]

are other auto companies considering the seemingly successful Tesla business model of charging upfront for free lifetime charging?

How much do you think Ev owners will pay upfront for free charging?

The exact same that they pay upfront for warranty coverage, manufacturer's profit, tooling depreciation, manufacturer's various insurance products, etc. In other words, it's not a line item on the window sticker; you just buy the car and charging is "free".

So the amount they would pay upfront is $0.

The real cost is whatever it would cost the manufacturer like Tesla.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I took the survey as well and wondering who might have commissioned it?

at first I thought it was Blink but now, not so sure. the other thought that came into my head is Nissan investigating the option to change it from 500 stations to 5,000 stations and charging for charging?

 

[evnow]

As Tesla is so far ahead of the curve on this it could it be that perhaps somebody is thinking of taking Tesla up on their offer to license the technology and use of Superchargers in future EV's? Has anybody heard any rumours about this?

No.

You should checkout TMC - where they are talking about some local S owners who go and charge at the supercharger instead of at home - blocking the charger for long distance travelers.

Tesla looks like one of those internet firms offering "life time free" something if you buy upfront - since they are not all that worried about what happens 5 years down the road. They just want to sell some stuff now.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I concluded a while back that there is no viable business model for charging to charge. The main purpose of a charging network is to overcome psychological barriers to adoption. The value of having the network will never be reflected by frequency of use, but rather the level of comfort drivers have in getting around with confidence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a network is valuable when you are in a pinch. When compared to charging at home at wholesale electricity prices, people avoid using public chargers on a daily basis if they are fee based.

A few months ago I went on a trip up into Canada and had a chance to talk with Kent Rathwell, the found of Sun Country Highway. his model is, hands down, IMHO, the way to go in the US: have private sponsors pay for the charging stations and have businesses pay for the install and and electricity as a perk to business. Using this network is free, no RFID cards, no complex touch screens and, they work! What's more, they are high powered J1772, so all cars can use them. I was so inspired by my experience with Sun Country that I have volunteered my time to help bring it to the US, beginning with WA state!

I don't think the auto industry will make it happen, but we can!!!!!!!

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13981&p=318563&hilit=help+green#p318563

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

As Tesla is so far ahead of the curve on this it could it be that perhaps somebody is thinking of taking Tesla up on their offer to license the technology and use of Superchargers in future EV's? Has anybody heard any rumours about this?

No.

You should checkout TMC - where they are talking about some local S owners who go and charge at the supercharger instead of at home - blocking the charger for long distance travelers.

Tesla looks like one of those internet firms offering "life time free" something if you buy upfront - since they are not all that worried about what happens 5 years down the road. They just want to sell some stuff now.

+1

with the spate of businesses changing hands, going out of business or simply changing policy; the word "lifetime" has nearly no meaning to me and Tesla's claims are no different.

I concluded a while back that there is no viable business model for charging to charge. The main purpose of a charging network is to overcome psychological barriers to adoption. The value of having the network will never be reflected by frequency of use, but rather the level of comfort drivers have in getting around with confidence. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a network is valuable when you are in a pinch. When compared to charging at home at wholesale electricity prices, people avoid using public chargers on a daily basis if they are fee based.

George; I concur that that is currently true but that will also change. right now, the defacto standard is to drive gas. its much more accepted and MUCH more expensive but convenience has a price.

the next step is two fold; get a car at a reasonable price that will handle all transpo needs

get a convenient alternative to handle the longer options.


both are a ways off. until then, public charging MUST fill the gaps. Right now there are few (ya, Tesla your market is LIMITED!!) willing to pay a lot for the ability to drive electric. a niche product will see 10X more pushback gaining wide acceptance.

there needs to be a product that can earn wide acceptance and fact of the matter; it will need public charging support and that will be true for the next several years (at least 3-5 i am guessing)

so we put this on hold for 3-5 years? no. no way. made that mistake already and it got us NOWHERE. we need to push on.

i wont buy a car until it gets me at least 120 miles on a charge (might go as low as 100 if the price is right but it would have to be a near giveaway)

but i will lease and public charging support is the ONLY reason i can make that choice.

Now paying for it? a buck an hour is reasonable (25 cents per quarter hour is better) any flat rate charge per connection is a mistake. it does not allow convenience for all scenarios.

its too bad that Blink had so many missteps and piss poor funding in its endeavours because a buck an hour really is a pretty good deal.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Dave, I just don't think there is a business model out there that includes charging a fee for charging that will be successful. people just aren't willing to pay enough per charge to cover the high expense of data hook up, purchase and install of a fee collecting capable unit. adding fee collection increases the expense of the machine and install considerably and dramatically complicates the contract, as well as significantly increases the failure points, all that added to the fact that a for fee system has to compete with holesale electricity out of one's own garage... it's dead in the water, IMHO. I'm not suggesting waiting, o contraire, I'm suggesting we move quickly forward with a free for use high Amperage J1772 approach, AKA Sun Country Highway Model http://suncountryhighway.com/, ASAP!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dave, I just don't think there is a business model out there that includes charging a fee for charging that will be successful. people just aren't willing to pay enough per charge to cover the high expense of data hook up, purchase and install of a fee collecting capable unit. adding fee collection increases the expense of the machine and install considerably and dramatically complicates the contract, as well as significantly increases the failure points, all that added to the fact that a for fee system has to compete with holesale electricity out of one's own garage... it's dead in the water, IMHO. I'm not suggesting waiting, o contraire, I'm suggesting we move quickly forward with a free for use high Amperage J1772 approach, AKA Sun Country Highway Model http://suncountryhighway.com/, ASAP!

actually would not have to charge all that much. Even an average revenue of $5 per session would be profitable eventually. Right now, demand is inconsistent and weak. There are simply not enough EVs on the road yet. Equipment costs are way out of line with what they do (which isnt really much)

keep in mind, EVs are competing with a highly subsidized Oil industry. Subsidies will weaken as realization of Oil's true impact becomes MUCH more painfully obvious. I am afraid we are still a ways off from that realization in most areas of the country but every EV range increase will make public charging more attractive.

All we really need is a few laws here and there to balance it out. Let me ask you; why is gasoline so successful? or better yet, why are gasoline stations so successful. a short investigation of what it takes to be legally allowed to store more than a few gallons at home will quickly answer that question.

so a subsidized oil industry is supported in many many ways other than tax breaks.

 

[gigglehertz]

are other auto companies considering the seemingly successful Tesla business model of charging upfront for free lifetime charging?

How much do you think Ev owners will pay upfront for free charging?

The exact same that they pay upfront for warranty coverage, manufacturer's profit, tooling depreciation, manufacturer's various insurance products, etc. In other words, it's not a line item on the window sticker; you just buy the car and charging is "free".

So the amount they would pay upfront is $0.

Doesn't Tesla charge something like $2500 or something for access as an upgrade option, at least to people purchasing the smaller battery models? I was thinking it would be something similar for a next gen Leaf or whatever Chevy wants to put out next, assuming they would use a Tesla compatible battery pack.

I like with the Sun Country Highway folks are trying to do, I just wish they would give us more specific info before asking for money. Personally I'd like to see all EV drivers pitching in money to a charging co-op that we'd all own together, with the understanding that it would probably never be profitable in the corporate sense, but that's the PNW hippie in me talking.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Dave, I just don't think there is a business model out there that includes charging a fee for charging that will be successful. people just aren't willing to pay enough per charge to cover the high expense of data hook up, purchase and install of a fee collecting capable unit. adding fee collection increases the expense of the machine and install considerably and dramatically complicates the contract, as well as significantly increases the failure points, all that added to the fact that a for fee system has to compete with holesale electricity out of one's own garage... it's dead in the water, IMHO. I'm not suggesting waiting, o contraire, I'm suggesting we move quickly forward with a free for use high Amperage J1772 approach, AKA Sun Country Highway Model http://suncountryhighway.com/, ASAP!

actually would not have to charge all that much. Even an average revenue of $5 per session would be profitable eventually. Right now, demand is inconsistent and weak. There are simply not enough EVs on the road yet. Equipment costs are way out of line with what they do (which isnt really much)

keep in mind, EVs are competing with a highly subsidized Oil industry. Subsidies will weaken as realization of Oil's true impact becomes MUCH more painfully obvious. I am afraid we are still a ways off from that realization in most areas of the country but every EV range increase will make public charging more attractive.

All we really need is a few laws here and there to balance it out. Let me ask you; why is gasoline so successful? or better yet, why are gasoline stations so successful. a short investigation of what it takes to be legally allowed to store more than a few gallons at home will quickly answer that question.

so a subsidized oil industry is supported in many many ways other than tax breaks.

The cost of the electricity is negligible, that's why it's best if it's free, more like a public service, at least at L2 levels. The big costs are locating and installing the EVSE's, not so much the EVSE's themselves, not even at today's inflated prices. the businesses I have talked to who have signed up for Sun Country are delighted how well it's been working for them in terms of drawing business. The business I have talked to who host for fee EVSE's are not so pleased generally. Free charging is, IMHO, the way to go for L1 and L2 and I think it will take only a modest amount of fund raising (compared to, say, what Ecotality burned through) to put free stations in across the US like they have in Canada.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...
I like with the Sun Country Highway folks are trying to do, I just wish they would give us more specific info before asking for money...

if you have any specific questions, feel free to post them on the Sun Country threat or send me a PM... I can most likely get you the answers. A map of the target areas for stations should be forthcoming in the next day or so.

 

[cwerdna]

The cost of the electricity is negligible, that's why it's best if it's free, more like a public service, at least at L2 levels.
...
Free charging is, IMHO, the way to go for L1 and L2 and I think it will take only a modest amount of fund raising (compared to, say, what Ecotality burned through) to put free stations in across the US like they have in Canada.

For your area, electricity is very cheap, at least for residential (https://www.seattle.gov/light/accounts/rates/ac5_erps24.htm#rsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. I've lived in the Seattle area for over 9 years before.

Try putting in your residential usage into http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; w/a 95136 zip code and no for CARE (low income people).

You can look at my utility's residential rates at http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/electric.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. In particular, pay attention to E-1 or E-6 (I'm on E-6 which is TOU based). Our baselines (http://www.pge.com/myhome/customerservice/financialassistance/medicalbaseline/understand/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false are a joke if there are multiple people in a household. I'm in area X and my baseline is 11.0 kwh/day in summer and 11.7 in winter.

With certain commercial plans, one has to worry about demand charges as well (if you draw over a certain amount over a 15 minute window).

If it's "free" or a public service, who pays for it and how? Money doesn't grow on trees.

At the Santa Clara County Water District office that's about 5 miles away from my home, it's awesome they have free EV charging there. Currently, there are 7 J1772 stations (I've confirmed I can charge at ~6 kW rate w/them), all free of charge. I've seen Leafs, Volts and Model S charge there, so far.

Let's assume 365 days/year, that on average, there are 3 cars that pull 20 kwh each and it costs them $0.20/kwh. At the end of 1 year, that would've cost someone $4380. Sure, that's nothing compared to the cost of the EVSEs and installation, but who pays that?

 

[evnow]

Let's assume 365 days/year, that on average, there are 3 cars that pull 20 kwh each and it costs them $0.20/kwh. At the end of 1 year, that would've cost someone $4380. Sure, that's nothing compared to the cost of the EVSEs and installation, but who pays that?

3 cars per day = 1,095 extra customer visits. If they generate just $4 in profits (say 2 sodas) that covers the cost. These people are likely to stop at that business, even when they don't charge, so probably even more business anyway.

BTW, most likely people charge for an hour - so probably 7 kWh per car. That means need just $1.5 per customer visit to cover the cost. If they charge for more than an hour, they would probably spend more time in the business and buy more stuff.

Just look at gas stations. They have razor thin margin on gas itself - and make all their money selling other stuff. The customers don't even spend that much time at gas stations.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
2 sodas = $4 in profit? At least at fast food and fast casual restaurants, they don't charge $2 for a small or medium. McD around here charges $1 for all sizes.

As for the case I gave of the 7 free J1772 EVSEs (+ a paddle charger too, don't know if it works), they're in the parking lot of http://www.scvwd.dst.ca.us/About/Headquarters.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. They don't sell any sodas or anything at all. It's just a few office buildings. I've always dropped by when there's nobody working there (as far as I can tell).

It is within a 6-10 min walk of a bunch of businesses (banks, credit union, Chili's, Toys R Us, Chipotle, Pinkberry, Whole Payback, etc.) @ the corner of Blossom Hill and Almaden Expressway and a bunch more if you're willing to walk further. I currently doubt those businesses chip in anything for charging or EVSEs.

I've parked my car and walked over to Chipotle to a few times already. I've seen Leafs left at that lot that have completed charging and Model S that look like they've been there for awhile. Unknown how long they spent there. I know w/most of the EVs when I do my Chipotle visit are there when I arrive and still there when I leave. After my Chipotle visits, I've also spent a bunch of time in my Leaf while plugged in there reading thru the manual and poking around on the nav system (still learning some stuff). Hadn't seen anyone come get their EVs during that.

Only once have I actually seen the drivers of any of the cars charging there. It was a Volt driver sleeping in his car while waiting.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Having been exploring many options in this public charging thing, anything free really isn't free. Somebody will pay, and somebody will use and abuse.

Particularly here in California, electricity isn't cheap. For businesses that don't sell anything, there's not much motive to give a 100kWh car a full charge at easily 25 - 40 cents per kWh... that's right, folks, a 2015 Telsa Model X could suck up $25 - $40 worth of electricity in one stop here in sunny SoCal.

The next (one of many) issues is handicap spots, and land owner/leasees not wanting to give up ANY parking spots. This is a far easier sell in more rural areas with relatively cheap land, but there just isn't a lot of that around here. Those parking spots cost real money.

Then, the abuse issue. If it's free, people will camp there. That problem will get far worse as more and more people adopt an EV to save money! This isn't a problem in Canada with 300 LEAFs in the entire country, but it is a problem in SoCal with many thousands of EVs.