I live in Phoenix AZ 115+ hot summers - should I get a leaf?

[Deleted member 9549]

Just take what you hear on gm-volt.com with a grain of salt. Folks who dare say anything non-positive about the Volt on that forum get banned unlike this forum. I mentioned their slow sales and was banned, no warning, IP banned, big time tantrum by the super moderator WopOnTour

You aren't the first one to mention the censorship over there.

Correction. To my knowledge he is the first, and so far as I know, the only person to claim that. And his claim was pretty thoroughly debunked when he made it before.
Read http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12005&start=135 and the following 20 or so posts.
Ray

Not meaning to derail this thread but...
I certainly do not see that it was debunked. Because it doesn't happen to everyone doesn't mean it doesn't happen to anyone. I mention threads on gm-volt where owners are attacked. I mention names of users who have been banned. Searching posts for those users show no offensive posts. Posting a response from WopOnTour is not debunking. He has the ability to say what he wants on that forum and not allow any dissent. Hardly an open or factual discussion.

Thread where a senior owner had a runaway car (computer crash). Attacked.
Thread where above owner's dangerous experience was made fun of by a thread started by a moderator
Thread where Volt owner was attacked for reporting a problem.

I like that owner's last post in that thread,

Ok so after getting the responses I have gotten I stopped looking at this forum (gm-volt.com). Clearly being treated as a liar is not the reception I expected. I will just no longer post threads on here anymore, that's fine. Not that any of you deserve the information I'm providing based on your responses to me but I will provide it anyway for the few people who actually post with respect.
...
I understand that a lot of you haven't had issue with your car but there is no reason to get defensive about it.

Users banned include 'dogma'. Look at his posts. Last post was predicting poor sales of the Cadillac ELR.
WOP also states warnings are given. Maybe in some cases, but clearly not true in my case.

Apparently there's an anti-EV segment of the population and the Volt is or has been the lightning rod making that forum quite defensive. I've seen a little of it so far leasing a Leaf but not much.

Incidentally, there are negative posts about the LEAF on gm-volt.com, but I think not so many as the negative posts found here on the Volt.

And I'd generally say that I've seen many posts here suggesting people get a Volt where there are temperature or range issues. I can't recall ever seeing someone on the Volt forum suggest a Leaf.

 

[shrink]

Do not buy under any circumstances here in Phoenix. I personally would not lease either. Someone posted that 8 LEAFs in Phoenix were getting their batteries replaced this month because capacity dropped to around 70% after 2 years. You don't want to drop money into that kind of hassle. We do have a good number of QC's locally and that will help you go farther, but it's $5/charge.

If you really want to go all electric here, be sure the battery is cooled. I'd try to snag one of the Fiat EV's or Honda Fit EV's from CA but that'll be hard. I hear demand is very high. Tesla would of course be the first choice but I am assuming a LEAF like price point since you asked. I read Ford Focus EV just dropped the price. That's a solid car. I think the RAV 4EV is a very attractive option. Prices have dropped on those quite a bit. It has lots of space and about a 100 mile range, which as jspearman wrote, can get you around this spread out valley very easily. Is the Spark EV available here in AZ yet? I have mixed feelings about that car - like the speed, but looks are not my taste and I don't like the 3.3kw charger for a 2013.

I have a Volt, too, and am getting about the same electric miles as jspearman. I've been very happy with the Volt, but I should also mention that I had to do a fuel maintenance burn last week and ran through a tank of 1-year old stale gas.

If you still want to try a LEAF, you're welcome to take over the lease on my 2012. It runs through 6/2014. I grabbed it before the price drops unfortunately, but the monthly is reasonable - around $350/mo and no long term commitment. You can see if it's a fit for you with low risk and you won't be locked in for a couple of years.

As much as I caution about the LEAF here, it introduced me to driving electric and we've prouldy driven over 22,000 electric miles between our sold 2011 and currently leased 2012. However, we need something more heat tolerant here and I need more range. On a triple digit day a couple of weeks ago, I could not make it home without a QC driving between central Phoenix and Gilbert - almost all highway and 60 mikes RT. I do that commute about once a month and will be talking the Volt next time.

In summary, I strongly advise against the LEAF in Phoenix, but you are welcome to try mine.

That is a serious offer, BTW.

 

[davidcary]

On the a/c ... I don't live in a area as hot as Pheonix but the a/c usage meter always goes to a sliver quite quickly. I've been nearly ecstatic compared to my old car as far as the a/c is concerned. (Civic hybrid).

Now - that being said, if the a/c has changed, maybe it is helping cool the battery a bit. If they changed the insulation placement or amount, the cabin could be cooling the battery more than it did in 2011 and 2012. If there used to be some insulation between the cabin and the battery and it is now gone for instance.

It is hard to imagine that a/c efficiency changed very much. I mean how could that happen? Adding heat pump functionality will not impact the a/c efficiency. There were no freon changes that I am aware of.

 

[kmp647]

are there any other reports of the 2013 a/c hogging current compared to the 11's and 12"s ?

seems to me the whole point of the heatpump system is lost if all the efficiency gained in winter is lost in the summer a/c season!

I dont see how they could design it this poorly and not find it in testing

Everyone here knows how efficient the 11 and 12 system is in summer , I rarely go without a/c its comsumption is so low.

 

[scottf200]

Aside: There have been hysteria type of threads about the Volt that have been disproven or were clearly trolls (repeating IPs recognized, etc). Volt has taken a ton more abuse in articles and links to GM-Volt threads than most cars including the LEAF. The battery issue here has not had hardly any press, for example.
Example: Accelerator stuck. - This one made the news articles.
Answer: User car mat slide forward and it caused the issue. Standard mats and most OEMs have the holes in them that go in the mat locking tabs.

Aside only to dm33, say what you want about WOP the mod but the rest of the mods there mainly clean up spam. Your diatribes are absurd like gm-volt killed your pet or something and you are on a mission.

 

[gbarry42]

I went and read one of the linked posts. It started off like this:

Recently I was driving my Volt, and I pressed the Leaf button on my center stack without looking.

Wow, I thought, they have a LEAF button in the Volt! After I thought about it for awhile, I realized that if Nissan had been just a little more forthcoming with information, we would have a means of checking the state of the auxiliary battery. That way, we could have a Volt button in the LEAF! That would complete the circle

 

[gbarry42]

If I had made an observation like the A/C consumption being a lot bigger, I would certainly want to start a message thread (or find one in progress) about it. That's just something we all need to know about. Now, my 2011 does something like that, but it's not the A/C--it likes to turn the heater on at the same time! And this has been discussed at length. Anyway, there's got to be more to this than just what you see on the energy display. Also...

if the a/c has changed, maybe it is helping cool the battery a bit.

It's a great idea; so good that if they were to actually do something like this, it would be newsworthy. Nissan might actually brag about this, but in any case this wouldn't be a secret for long. I'm not optimistic that anything like this has happened. There is also the issue of how to cool the battery when you aren't using the car. That's not trivial, from an energy use standpoint.

 

[dgpcolorado]

On the a/c ... I don't live in a area as hot as Pheonix but the a/c usage meter always goes to a sliver quite quickly. I've been nearly ecstatic compared to my old car as far as the a/c is concerned. (Civic hybrid).

Now - that being said, if the a/c has changed, maybe it is helping cool the battery a bit. If they changed the insulation placement or amount, the cabin could be cooling the battery more than it did in 2011 and 2012. If there used to be some insulation between the cabin and the battery and it is now gone for instance.

It is hard to imagine that a/c efficiency changed very much. I mean how could that happen? Adding heat pump functionality will not impact the a/c efficiency. There were no freon changes that I am aware of.

My assumption is that using the heat pump to cool the cabin is less efficient than the pure AC unit used in the 2011/2012 (and 2013 S model?). I don't find that hard to believe at all. I presume that the 2013 SV/SL has just one heat pump for both heating and cooling, right?

 

[TonyWilliams]

if the a/c has changed, maybe it is helping cool the battery a bit.

It's a great idea; so good that if they were to actually do something like this, it would be newsworthy. Nissan might actually brag about this, but in any case this wouldn't be a secret for long. I'm not optimistic that anything like this has happened. There is also the issue of how to cool the battery when you aren't using the car. That's not trivial, from an energy use standpoint.

Let's stop this unfounded rumor NOW. There is no LEAF with battery cooling of ANY KIND.

The number two guy at Nissan stood in Scottsdale in January and told all of us that future LEAFs would not have TMS either.

The End.

 

[GRA]

I agree that a car with a liquid-cooled TMS like the FFE would be the BEV I'd recommend for Phoenix, but assuming you're willing to have a car shipped it strikes me that the Spark EV is being sold right next door in California, is considerably cheaper than the FFE, and isn't likely to be production-limited like the 500e and FitEV. Of course, you have to decide how much hassle getting service for the Spark will be in Arizona, versus the Focus which is being sold there. Other than that, it's one of the PHEVs.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Let's stop this unfounded rumor NOW. There is no LEAF with battery cooling of ANY KIND.

The number two guy at Nissan stood in Scottsdale in January and told all of us that future LEAFs would not have TMS either.

The End.

Agreed, there is no battery cooling in the LEAF of any kind.

However, the same guy also promised a battery price this spring. So they can clearly change their mind. It seems they have been surprised at how much degradation has been occurring in hot climates. Not sure what options they have for future LEAFs. Either add some cooling mechanism, change the battery chemistry to be more tolerant, or deal with high numbers of warranty issues with the ensuing harm to Nissan's reputation.

I'm hoping they resolve this problem within 2 years so that it won't be an issue on my next lease. I'm not buying anything until the Tesla Gen III is revealed.

 

[TonyWilliams]

They will have a new battery with 2015 model year. It probably won't have TMS, either.

 

[TickTock]

They will have a new battery with 2015 model year. It probably won't have TMS, either.

I hope not!

 

[GerryAZ]

They will have a new battery with 2015 model year. It probably won't have TMS, either.

I hope not!

+1

To OP:
Many here are suggesting a Volt--be advised that it does not qualify for alternate fuel registration (HOV lane access and much less registration cost than normal vehicle license tax rate). Any of the purely electric vehicles will be much cheaper to register and give you single-occupant HOV lane access. Regarding the LEAF, if 55 miles per charge at highway speed is adequate for your needs, there should be no concern for a 2-year lease.

Gerry

 

[hyperlexis]

Let's stop this unfounded rumor NOW. There is no LEAF with battery cooling of ANY KIND.

The number two guy at Nissan stood in Scottsdale in January and told all of us that future LEAFs would not have TMS either.

The End.

Agreed, there is no battery cooling in the LEAF of any kind.

However, the same guy also promised a battery price this spring. So they can clearly change their mind. It seems they have been surprised at how much degradation has been occurring in hot climates. Not sure what options they have for future LEAFs. Either add some cooling mechanism, change the battery chemistry to be more tolerant, or deal with high numbers of warranty issues with the ensuing harm to Nissan's reputation.

I'm hoping they resolve this problem within 2 years so that it won't be an issue on my next lease. I'm not buying anything until the Tesla Gen III is revealed.

Dumb question but does the damage come from trying to charge the battery in a hot climate (i.e. outside) or just from the Leaf being in a hot climate?

Has anyone been able to compute the outdoor temperatures that seem to do the damage? +80? +90 +100? If one charged a leaf inside, in a garage that was cooler, or kept the car mostly garaged or in the shade at each destination (not very practical) does it prevent the problem?

If you really want to get super specific, do some colored leafs fare worse with high temps (i.e. black, vs. reflective/white paint)?

So peculiar that the Leaf, oddly, has a heating system that relies on liquid coolant, but they never figured to just run a few loops of tubing around the battery pack from that same system to help cool off an overheating battery pack. Or even at least just put a fan into the battery box like they do in a Prius/Insight. I know Nissan says its not needed because the charging is so carefully regulated, but obviously, not enough.

A Nissan dealer in Bradley, IL tried to sell me a Phoenix Leaf (off lease) that had 4 bars off. Same blue book price as a good one. Wouldn't knock a dime off the price or replace/repair the pack for the full price. Totally reprehensible for a dealer. Some poor sap will likely buy it not knowing....

 

[surfingslovak]

Dumb question but does the damage come from trying to charge the battery in a hot climate (i.e. outside) or just from the Leaf being in a hot climate?

The degradation or "damage" appears to be directly proportional to the average temperature the pack sits at most of the time. Since the car spends majority of its life at or close to ambient temperature, the amount of capacity loss owners see correlates closely with the local climate. There is a formula known as Arrhenius law, which explains this relationship. It's applied not only to batteries but also to other items, which have a shelf life dependent on chemical processes. The behavior of an automotive battery pack is closely related and dependent on the chemistry chosen. In the case of the LEAF, it's lithium manganese oxide or LMO for short.

Has anyone been able to compute the outdoor temperatures that seem to do the damage? +80? +90 +100? If one charged a leaf inside, in a garage that was cooler, or kept the car mostly garaged or in the shade at each destination (not very practical) does it prevent the problem?

Yes. Please have a look at the Battery Aging Model in the wiki. Given that eight battery packs have reached end of life in 2 1/2 instead of 5 years in Phoenix, this model might need to recalibrated as more empirical data comes in. It presently reflects the information provided by a Nissan engineer to one of the Phoenix owners. Additionally, it was announced last year that the batteries are on a glide path to 75% remaining capacity in five years in Phoenix.

If you really want to get super specific, do some colored leafs fare worse with high temps (i.e. black, vs. reflective/white paint)?

Yes, this has been examined early on and no significant correlation exists to vehicle color. Please look at the long thread titled "Early capacity losses" for more details.

So peculiar that the Leaf, oddly, has a heating system that relies on liquid coolant, but they never figured to just run a few loops of tubing around the battery pack from that same system to help cool off an overheating battery pack. Or even at least just put a fan into the battery box like they do in a Prius/Insight. I know Nissan says its not needed because the charging is so carefully regulated, but obviously, not enough.

This appears to be a fundamental and even philosophical design decision, likely aiming at making the design both inexpensive and robust. Unfortunately, the battery chemistry chosen, the composition of the electrolyte and some of the other cell components appear to also make it highly sensitive to heat. Based on earlier discussions, Nissan has the choice of either improving cooling or making the battery chemistry more heat resistant.

 

[LEAFer]

Dumb question but does the damage come from trying to charge the battery in a hot climate (i.e. outside) or just from the Leaf being in a hot climate?

Both ... but more importantly it does not matter what the OAT (Outside Air Temp) is ... the only thing that matters is what the battery (chemistry) temperature is. In other words, if the battery is cool, you can go ahead and charge it at any OAT you desire with little ill effect. The real problem is the other way around. Once the battery gets warm (or hot) it won't cool down quickly, no matter how much the OAT cools off at night. This is a simple "thermal mass" effect and the fact that the battery is sealed with no active cooling (only conduction thru the car body).

Our Sacramento OAT temps drop to the low 60s at night ... but the battery is often still in the mid 80s+ the next morning when charging completes at 7am if the prior day we hit 100F. In Phoenix (and similar climates) it will be much worse. The total time the battery is at higher temps is detrimental (i.e. your "being" status) and, naturally, charging (or driving) a hot battery will add to the degradation effect, even if current flows only for a short time.

(See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10653&start=37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; When you see Battery min/max in the 80s it was a 95F+ degree day the day before, otherwise it may have hit only 80F prior day. Multiple days in a row add to the "thermal mass" issue.)


Edit: I see surfingslovak just answered near simultaneously The more info the merrier !

 

[surfingslovak]

Both ... but more importantly it does not matter what the OAT (Outside Air Temp) is ... the only thing that matters is what the battery (chemistry) temperature is. In other words, if the battery is cool, you can go ahead and charge it at any OAT you desire with little ill effect. The real problem is the other way around. Once the battery gets warm (or hot) it won't cool down quickly, no matter how much the OAT cools off at night. This is a simple "thermal mass" effect and the fact that the battery is sealed with no active cooling (only conduction thru the car body).

Yes, the temperature of the battery is what matters and that's a function of its thermal mass, its usage pattern, its thermal capacity and the local micro-climate (think "garage"). That said, early analysis has shown that there is about 70% correlation between the average ambient temperature and the amount of capacity loss seen. This is a complex model and interdependence, but as experience has shown, there can be a simple enough explanation. In the case of the battery pack in the LEAF, it's the local climate that plays an overwhelming role. This is something I emphasized since last May.

Edit: I see surfingslovak just answered near simultaneously The more info the merrier !

:-D

 

[shrink]

Yes, the temperature of the battery is what matters and that's a function of its thermal mass, its usage pattern, the local micro-climate (think "garage") and its thermal capacity. That said, early analysis has shown that there is about 70% correlation between the average ambient temperature and the amount of capacity loss seen. This is a complex model and interdependence, but as experience has shown there can be a simple enough model and explanation. In the case of the battery pack in the LEAF, it's the local climate that plays an overwhelming role.

And Tony has referenced this article before, but this researcher says temps above 86 F do the most harm to a battery:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-life-lithium-ion-batteries-electric.html#jCp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

Yes, the temperature of the battery is what matters and that's a function of its thermal mass, its usage pattern, the local micro-climate (think "garage") and its thermal capacity. That said, early analysis has shown that there is about 70% correlation between the average ambient temperature and the amount of capacity loss seen. This is a complex model and interdependence, but as experience has shown there can be a simple enough model and explanation. In the case of the battery pack in the LEAF, it's the local climate that plays an overwhelming role.

And Tony has referenced this article before, but this researcher says temps above 86 F do the most harm to a battery:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-life-lithium-ion-batteries-electric.html#jCp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, that's entirely possible. The Arrhenius equation is a simple formula, which does not consider the item itself and its exact composition at all. Given the characteristics of and materials used to build a battery cell, we could see more degradation above a certain threshold. This is much like what LEAFer described above. There is a number of contributing factors, and in the absence of lab data, we are trying to develop an understanding what might matter and how much. I personally found it curious that several owners reported more capacity loss after pushing the battery to eight and ten temperature bars with multiple quick charges on one day. If only the Arrhenius relationship is used, then this type of event should be just a blip, and not have a directly observable impact on battery life.