How much would you pay for a BMW i3?

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TomMoloughney

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
157
The BMW i3 launches in September 2013. BMW hasn't announced pricing yet and has only said it will cost less than a 5-series. I did a post comparing it to other available EV's and listed a poll for people to vote on what they think is a fair price for it. Please take a look and vote:

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2012/06/iframe-allowtransparency-true.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note: I didn't include the Infinity LE because there just isn't any real information about the battery size, range, price, etc or I would have definitely included it as a comparison EV.
 
Less than a base 5 series? Add options and it is gets pricy. I would rather get a Tesla if it is going to cost that much and support a company that actually cares about EVs.
 
Voted.
Will the BMW i3 be at car shows this fall/winter? Would love to see & drive one.
Like that there's a bit more range, has a hatch and the option of quick charge.
5 seater is more versatile, but... if the ride and 4 seats are nice enough... we might be able to tolerate it. ;) :D
 
Voted also. I seem to agree with the majority on the poll, mid $40s. As long as the federal tax credit and CA rebate are still in place two years from now, and if I can get a lease for under $500 with $2k down, that would work.
 
GoingGreener said:
the option of quick charge.

You do know that there won't be many of those special SAE Combo "Frankenplugs" quick chargers around the country in Sept 2013? Actually, it may be very close to ZERO.

The current quick charge standard is likely to have hundreds in the USA at the same time (and thousands around the world).
 
Hard to say without seeing the production car and driving it. Can't see how you could set a price without a good idea of what you were buying.

My problem with expensive BEVs is that you end up spending a lot on a limited purpose commuter car.
 
There were a few teeny tiny issues with your LEAF comparison. I'll just accept your BMW data, since it's vaporware anyway, and subject to change. You might want to include that BMW will have leather, but then, so will LEAF.

The LEAF does go faster than 90, so I'm not sure where you got that number. Most report 94mph on level ground, which is the motor limit of 10,300-ish RPM. That motor in the BMW is STRONG, and I would love that, combined with typical BMW handling. I prefer rear wheel drive.

I changed your 0-60 time to reflect documented data, but realistically, it's 9 seconds. The 7.7kW charger is a bit of a red herring, because most of the public EVSE's are limited by the cable to 30 amps, or 6.6kW. So, while the charger may be slightly faster, it's not very likely it will be so in practice.

The quick charger is a huge problem, and I absolutely_would_not_buy another car that I can't have ready access to quick charging. SAE Combo "Frankenplug" won't even be deployed (SAE vote still to accept the design proposal, prototyping, testing, UL listing, manufacturing, deploying, etc) won't be deployed for several years, and won't reach any serious volume for even more years, if ever. In the third quarter 2013, there will be hundreds of CHAdeMo chargers in the USA, and maybe 500 in Europe and 2000 in Japan.

Active thermal is huge for a high output motor, and for those hot/cold conditions that kill the battery performance. I don't know how much that's worth to me, so BMW would have to have a better warranty than Nissan has with performance guarantees like Volt does.

I don't know that carbon fiber is worth much to me. The bottom line would be; is it lighter, or not? If it's just full of exotic materials, and still weighs close to the very conventional LEAF, that wouldn't be appealing. The EPA mileage estimate with a smaller battery can only be possible with better aerodynamics and/or less weight. That may mean too small for me. I like the LEAF's size, and did not like either the Mini-E or Active-E limitations (no / limited trunk, no back seat / extremely limited back seat with tall driver, etc). If the i3 follows this thinking, I would not buy.

I like the idea of the small generator to extend range, but I don't know that I'd buy it.

It looks like I voted the same as the majority so far. Low to mid 40's.

BMW i3 $42,500 - $45,000 ---------------Nissan Leaf $35,200(SV) $37,250(SL)
Four passenger hatchback ----------------Five passenger hatchback
Leather (opt or std?) ---------------------Leather optional - 2013
to be sold 3rd quarter 2013 -------------- available since Dec 2010
130 kW motor ------------------------- 80 kW motor
Top speed 93mph ---------------------- Mine, and others, go 94 mph
0-60 in under 8 seconds -----------------0-60 mph 7.9 seconds according to http://www.zeroto60times.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rear wheel drive ------------------------ Front drive
7.7kW level 2 charging standard ----------- 3.3/optional 6.6kW (NOTE: most EVSE's are limited to 6.6)
SAE DC quick charge optional-------------- CHAdeMO quick charge optional(standard on SL)
Optional gasoline generator extended range - Nada
Active liquid thermal management battery --- Nada
22kWh battery -------------------------- 24kW
Carbon fiber passenger cell & AL------------ Standard metal monocoque construction with AL doors
Range: EPA 92 miles per charge (estimated)--- 73 miles
2,756 pounds ------------------------------ 3350 pounds
 
Tony, ugh, yes. Wish CHADdeMO could just simply be the standard. :(
BTW, have a great, safe drive from Mexico to Canada! We'll be cheering you on!
 
So everyone seems to be for a quick charge even though it reduces battery life? I drove for 4 months and couldn't document a single case where I'd need to recharge quickly?
I guess what is the use of a quick charger and do you feel bad for doing it?
 
mrradon said:
So everyone seems to be for a quick charge even though it reduces battery life? I drove for 4 months and couldn't document a single case where I'd need to recharge quickly?
I guess what is the use of a quick charger and do you feel bad for doing it?

That's way off topic.... if you find no use for something (maybe eating pizza), I'm sure there are others who do. Let's talk about the BMW i3, and it's features/price.
 
mrradon said:
So everyone seems to be for a quick charge even though it reduces battery life? I drove for 4 months and couldn't document a single case where I'd need to recharge quickly?
I guess what is the use of a quick charger and do you feel bad for doing it?

I'm sure your driving routine is indicative of 100% of the population.
 
The big problem - and this applies to most all BMWs these days - is that the base price car that they advertise has none of the options that most people want and expect. They are simply advertising gambits. The cars that are actually being ordered, stocked and sold, have thousands more in options and packages... Thus, a given price point is worthless without knowing what it includes (or does not include)...

However, I agree with the previous poster; if it was close to Tesla country price-wise when similarly optioned, I'd go with the Tesla instead.
 
Hey Tony,

I did read the 90mph top speed(electronically governed) somewhere, but I'll take your word for it to be 94. The 0-60 time is definitely strange though. I did see the site you were referring to, and I did see another site that said it goes 0-60 in 7 seconds flat! However I have driven LEAF's many times and one time I did an unscientific 0-60 test and came up with 9.5 seconds. Also, Edmunds did a full road test and came up with 9.9 seconds and Motor Trend's test came up with 10.0 seconds. I trust Motor Trend and Edmunds more than the other unverified sites.

As for charging, if the EVSE is 30amp @240 volts, it can deliver 7.2kW's, not 6.6. Plus my home and work EVSE's are 50amp, so I can utilize the full charge rate and do with my ActiveE now (it has the same onboard charger that will be in the i3)

On the weight question, the production i3 will weigh 2,756. BMW says they shaved 600lbs off what the car would have weighed if it was made with conventional materials. They must have something there, why else use the CFRP because we all know it's expensive. The LEAF weighs 3,354,(which coincidentally is 600lbs) but it is bigger than the i3.

As for the EPA rating, the ActiveE weighs 4,001lbs, has a 32kWh battery and has an EPA rating of 94mpc. The i3 has the exact same drivetrain(all the same components) except a smaller battery, 22kWh. 22 is 69% of 32(battery size) and 2,756 is 69% of 4,001(weight). It's not a coincidence. Plus the i3 has a lower cd than the ActiveE. It will have a very similar EPA rating (Between 90 & 95).

I'm not so worried about the DC quick charge. I've talked to many of the manufacturers and they expect to sell most of their units with dual plugs, supporting both connectors. There isn't a CHAdeMO within hundreds of miles form me now and I've driven for three years now exclusively with a 100 miles BEV. Being able to charge it quickly (3 hours) on level 2 like the i3 will be able to do is much more important to me. On the four or five times a year that I need to drive hundreds of miles to get somewhere I'll just take another vehicle, like I've been doing.

By the way - don't think I'm an anti-LEAF guy, I'm not! I've actually convinced two people to buy them. Yes, I'm biased to BMW's EV program because I'm deep into it (I can't even really say everything I know as you can imagine) but I support all the manufacturers in deploying electric vehicles, ESPECIALLY Nissan, because they have been the leader amongst the major OEM's so far.



TonyWilliams said:
There were a few teeny tiny issues with your LEAF comparison. I'll just accept your BMW data, since it's vaporware anyway, and subject to change. You might want to include that BMW will have leather, but then, so will LEAF.

The LEAF does go faster than 90, so I'm not sure where you got that number. Most report 94mph on level ground, which is the motor limit of 10,300-ish RPM. That motor in the BMW is STRONG, and I would love that, combined with typical BMW handling. I prefer rear wheel drive.

I changed your 0-60 time to reflect documented data, but realistically, it's 9 seconds. The 7.7kW charger is a bit of a red herring, because most of the public EVSE's are limited by the cable to 30 amps, or 6.6kW. So, while the charger may be slightly faster, it's not very likely it will be so in practice.

The quick charger is a huge problem, and I absolutely_would_not_buy another car that I can't have ready access to quick charging. SAE Combo "Frankenplug" won't even be deployed (SAE vote still to accept the design proposal, prototyping, testing, UL listing, manufacturing, deploying, etc) won't be deployed for several years, and won't reach any serious volume for even more years, if ever. In the third quarter 2013, there will be hundreds of CHAdeMo chargers in the USA, and maybe 500 in Europe and 2000 in Japan.

Active thermal is huge for a high output motor, and for those hot/cold conditions that kill the battery performance. I don't know how much that's worth to me, so BMW would have to have a better warranty than Nissan has with performance guarantees like Volt does.

I don't know that carbon fiber is worth much to me. The bottom line would be; is it lighter, or not? If it's just full of exotic materials, and still weighs close to the very conventional LEAF, that wouldn't be appealing. The EPA mileage estimate with a smaller battery can only be possible with better aerodynamics and/or less weight. That may mean too small for me. I like the LEAF's size, and did not like either the Mini-E or Active-E limitations (no / limited trunk, no back seat / extremely limited back seat with tall driver, etc). If the i3 follows this thinking, I would not buy.

I like the idea of the small generator to extend range, but I don't know that I'd buy it.

It looks like I voted the same as the majority so far. Low to mid 40's.

BMW i3 $42,500 - $45,000 ---------------Nissan Leaf $35,200(SV) $37,250(SL)
Four passenger hatchback ----------------Five passenger hatchback
Leather (opt or std?) ---------------------Leather optional - 2013
to be sold 3rd quarter 2013 -------------- available since Dec 2010
130 kW motor ------------------------- 80 kW motor
Top speed 93mph ---------------------- Mine, and others, go 94 mph
0-60 in under 8 seconds -----------------0-60 mph 7.9 seconds according to http://www.zeroto60times.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rear wheel drive ------------------------ Front drive
7.7kW level 2 charging standard ----------- 3.3/optional 6.6kW (NOTE: most EVSE's are limited to 6.6)
SAE DC quick charge optional-------------- CHAdeMO quick charge optional(standard on SL)
Optional gasoline generator extended range - Nada
Active liquid thermal management battery --- Nada
22kWh battery -------------------------- 24kW
Carbon fiber passenger cell & AL------------ Standard metal monocoque construction with AL doors
Range: EPA 92 miles per charge (estimated)--- 73 miles EPA
WEIGHT ?????? (probably significantly lighter) -- 3350 pounds
 
TomMoloughney said:
... As for charging, if the EVSE is 30amp @240 volts, it can deliver 7.2kW's, not 6.6. ...
Many of the public venues are 208v, which puts you a little under 6.6kW for the same 30a J1772, plus from what we've seen on the LEAF, which draws 3.8+kW in order to power it's 3.3kW charger because of overhead and inefficiency, I'd guess that a 6.6kW charger will probably draw close to 7.2kW anyway. Bumping the charger to 7.7kW probably won't help much unless the EVSE can deliver north of 7.7kW and could need an input of 8.3kW or better to max out.
 
davewill said:
TomMoloughney said:
... As for charging, if the EVSE is 30amp @240 volts, it can deliver 7.2kW's, not 6.6. ...
Many of the public venues are 208v, which puts you a little under 6.6kW for the same 30a J1772, plus from what we've seen on the LEAF, which draws 3.8+kW in order to power it's 3.3kW charger because of overhead and inefficiency, I'd guess that a 6.6kW charger will probably draw close to 7.2kW anyway. Bumping the charger to 7.7kW probably won't help much unless the EVSE can deliver north of 7.7kW or so and might need an input of 8kW or better to max out.

Exactly.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Less than a base 5 series? Add options and it is gets pricy. I would rather get a Tesla if it is going to cost that much and support a company that actually cares about EVs.

No doubt it's not going to be cheap, but did you take a look at the Model S car configurer yet? I did and after adding a couple options I would want the Model S 40kWh is $67,100.

I added:
Tech package(navigation, keyless entry, backup camera): $3,750
Leather: $1,500
Premium sound: $950
21" wheels (the ones you see on all the Model S pictures): $3,500

Total: $67,100. Sure I suppose I could do without the wheel upgrade, but the other stuff I expect to have on a $60,000 car.

Yes, It a much bigger car with a greater range than the i3 (I'm guessing 125MPC rating by the EPA) so It should cost more. But the i3 isn't going to cost near what a comparably equipped Model S will. I suspect at least a $10,000 gap if you were to appoint the cars similarly, actually closer to $15,000.
 
TomMoloughney said:
By the way - don't think I'm an anti-LEAF guy, I'm not! I've actually convinced two people to buy them. Yes, I'm biased to BMW's EV program because I'm deep into it (I can't even really say everything I know as you can imagine) but I support all the manufacturers in deploying electric vehicles, ESPECIALLY Nissan, because they have been the leader amongst the major OEM's so far.


I'm not anti-BMW either. I've owned two, the 330cic, and a K1200LT motorcycle. Both were fun, expensive to purchase and maintain, required frequent repair and maintenance, and were a bit quirky compared to their premium Japanese competitors (the 330 convert was replaced with G37 convert last year). Lots of head scratching on engineering decisions that just didn't make sense to me.

For instance, any Japanese motorcycle will go to reasonable efforts to reduce weight. My BMW made seemingly little effort in that area, much like another brand, Harley Davidson.

I have gone exclusively dirt bike now, and bought the BMW owned Husqvarna TE510 (street legal, track capable). It has it's own issues with Italian design of a Swedish legendary brand; things like AC powered lighting (yes, it has a battery for the DC starter and turn signals. Horn, too, I think).

Anyhoo, like I said, none of these companies will sell me any car without realistic fast charging. Not just a plug that meets some committee's politically developed standard, but actual infrastructure in the ground. Without having a ChadeMo plug, or any way to use one, when in fact that is the existing developed infrastructure, is beyond foolhardy in my view. They could throw a Frankenplug port in there, too, to collect dust.

I passed on the BMW ActiveE, in a small part, for this limitation. And will likely do so for the Rav4. If Tesla does get it together, at least on the USA west coast, I'll buy their's.
 
davewill said:
TomMoloughney said:
... As for charging, if the EVSE is 30amp @240 volts, it can deliver 7.2kW's, not 6.6. ...
Many of the public venues are 208v, which puts you a little under 6.6kW for the same 30a J1772, plus from what we've seen on the LEAF, which draws 3.8+kW in order to power it's 3.3kW charger because of overhead and inefficiency, I'd guess that a 6.6kW charger will probably draw close to 7.2kW anyway. Bumping the charger to 7.7kW probably won't help much unless the EVSE can deliver north of 7.7kW and could need an input of 8.3kW or better to max out.

Yes, you are right there. Personally for me, I don't use public charging, never need to, and I really don't expect to use DC quick charge at all and hope I don't 'have' to pay for it in the i3, I want it to be optional. I drive over 30,000 miles per year in my EV and having charger at home and at work does it for me. I have Clipper Creek CS-60's that can deliver 11.5kW's max (48 amp@ 240) so I do utilize the higher charging rate that the cars can take. I was one of the people that put a deposit on the LEAF the first day they were available but cancelled when I found out about the 3.3kW charge rate, it simply couldn't keep up with my driving demands. There are many days I drive my ActiveE 200+ miles in the day because it charges quickly on level 2. Before everyone gets all defensive about the 3.3kW being sufficient, I agree it is - for most people, just not me. I do wish Nissan offered 6.6kW charging as an option when the LEAF launched though. There would be a black LEAF in my garage now if they did.
 
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