How fast is the public charging network being built-out ?

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rpmdk said:
as to the string of chargers, it doesn't make much sense to me with our current battery capacity - stopping every hour to charge for half an hour...

Maybe you would stop after an hour, but it will be an hour and a half for me (won't be driving 75 mph) and only 15-20 mins. charging, not 30. Thirty mins. is from empty, not partially charged. I will love the short break (restroom, snack, use smartphone, etc.).
 
LEAFfan said:
Maybe you would stop after an hour, but it will be an hour and a half for me (won't be driving 75 mph) and only 15-20 mins. charging, not 30. Thirty mins. is from empty, not partially charged.
Not really. According to the owner's manual, 30 minutes is from LBW to 80%. Thanks to the SOC meter we now know that LBW is at about 17%, so 30 minutes is for about 5/8 capacity, not all that much more than half. 15-20 minutes should give you about 1/3, so let's call it 7 kWh. You're the mileage champ, so let's say you get 9 m/kWh. That gives you 63 miles in your hour and a half, or about 40 mph. Factor in the down time and you will be averaging about 35 mph. My wife would never put up with that. (Not to mention that I would never get close to your numbers.)

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
Not really. According to the owner's manual, 30 minutes is from LBW to 80%. Thanks to the SOC meter we now know that LBW is at about 17%, so 30 minutes is for about 5/8 capacity, not all that much more than half. 15-20 minutes should give you about 1/3, so let's call it 7 kWh.
The Eaton DC charger can provide 50 kW, which should be a faster rate than you postulate. The LEAFs BMS might throttle it back, but why should we speculate? These chargers are currently operational and so someone here must have actual experience. Maybe they could tell us what actually happens.
 
I didn't realize I was speculating. I thought I was just quoting the owner's manual and numbers reported by people who have SOC gauges. Or are you suggesting that Nissan was speculating when it wrote the manual? (Page CH-6)

I might point out, though, that it is non-trivial for someone to "tell us what actually happens." They can tell us how long it takes, and probably some kWh number reported by the charger. But is that number wall energy or energy going to the battery? And even if it is the latter, how much of it is lost in the battery? If the person doing the charging happens also to have one of garygid's SOC meters they could presumably tell us fairly accurately what actually happens. Otherwise, not so much.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
I didn't realize I was speculating. I thought I was just quoting the owner's manual and numbers reported by people who have SOC gauges. Or are you suggesting that Nissan was speculating when it wrote the manual? (Page CH-6)
The manual does not postulate these SOC gauges. Nissan may be over-conservative in their estimate, thinking that the average reader will not examine their words under a microscope. Perhaps I should have used the word "extrapolating", you're drawing a conclusion that may be reading something into the information that may not be there. As I said, I'd like to hear from someone whose done it.
 
Excellent work, Oregon.

I posted the entire article, since (for once) the press really seems to "get" the idea that fast charging is integral to converting the nation's vehicle fleet from ICEVs to BEVs.

Looks like much (or all) of rural Oregon will have fast charge stations, even before the first one is installed on I-5 in North California, where I live.


Charging stations that can fill the batteries of an electric car in 30 minutes or less are moving from the city to the country.

A $2 million federal stimulus grant will finance 22 fast-charging stations in smaller cities in the northwestern corner of the state, the Oregon Department of Transportation announced Thursday. After they are installed next year, electric car owners will be able to go on vacation to the coast or the mountains and home again without having to stop overnight to charge up.

This comes on top of plans to build fast-charging stations along Interstate 5 in Oregon and Washington by the end of this year.

"Electric cars are often seen as city vehicles," said Kristen Helsel, vice president of EV solutions for AeroVironment Inc., the Monrovia, Calif., company that is building the charging stations. "What this does is it extends the range so you can go from one corridor to another. It completely changes how EVs can be used."

Oregon is the first state to get this kind of grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation, said spokesman Bill Adams.

The state's history of supporting green initiatives like the bottle deposit bill and open access to beaches has put it at the forefront of embracing electric vehicles, said Art James, innovative partnerships project director for Oregon's Transportation Department.

The governor's office has also made a strong commitment to electric cars.

In 2008, then-Gov. Ted Kulongoski signed a deal with Nissan North America to launch the all-electric Leaf in Oregon, and most of the country's major electric vehicle manufacturers have visited Oregon to talk about introducing their vehicles.

So far, there are only two fast-chargers in the state, both in Portland. Eight more are slated to go online by the end of October along Interstate 5 between Eugene and the California border.

The stations are gathering key data on how people use their electric cars, and hundreds more stations that can charge a car in a few hours are also planned.

Level 1 car chargers use 110 volts, like a regular home outlet, and it can take an entire night to charge a vehicle. Level 2 uses 240 volts, like a home dryer or range, and can charge a car in three or four hours. But Level 3, which uses 480 volts, makes en route charging feasible by boosting a Nissan Leaf's 45-kilowatt battery from a 20 percent charge to 80 percent in less than 30 minutes.

This new group of fast-charging stations will cover an area radiating from Portland and stretching 80 miles to the northwest, 50 miles to the east, and 120 miles south. Stations will be no more than 50 miles apart, well within the 70- to 100-mile range of the Leaf.

Each station will be at a place offering restrooms and a convenience store.

They will be able to handle only one car at a time, but with just an estimated 800 electric cars of various stripes spread among Oregon's nearly 4 million residents, the prospect for lines is small for now.

Analysts expect the number of electric vehicles to grow quickly as the charging infrastructure expands, making the technology more convenient.

Pat Davis, who heads the vehicle technologies program for the U.S. Department of Energy, said automakers' current plans for ramping up electric vehicle production puts the nation on track to top President Barack Obama's goal of 1 million electric vehicles on the road by 2015.

"It's clear that by 2025, to meet the new fuel (efficiency) requirements, that we are going to see more electrification than we have now," Davis said. "That is going to take the form of everything from micro-hybrids to full hybridization plug-ins to electric drive. But they will not be the only thing on the road. You will probably see more natural gas vehicles than you have today, and vehicles with downsized engines and lighter vehicles than today."

Justin Denley and his wife traded in a four-wheel-drive pickup truck and bought a Leaf this year to cut their spending on gasoline. He mostly uses it to commute about 4 miles to his job as an information technology specialist at a Medford, Ore., credit union, but he recently piled the family in for the 125-mile drive to the coast to show the car off to relatives.

To make what is a three-hour trip in a conventional car, they had to stop overnight at an RV park, where they slept in a tent while the car charged overnight.

Denley said he can't wait for the fast-charging stations to go online along Interstate 5 this fall.

"That's a key thing that has to happen for most people who want to adopt this technology," he said. "Range anxiety (the fear of getting stranded) is a real thing.

"People want to be able to go farther."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/08/18/state/n135512D57.DTL&type=autos
 
i dont see a "need" for more public charging to make the Leaf a major niche player. in a two car household a very high percentage could make the Leaf work with no other charging options other than a 120 Volt plug. more could do it with 240 volt charging. THAT need alone will take Nissan years to meet.

how many who would fit that need and be convinced of the Leaf's value to them without a massive public charging station remains to be seen.

as for me; i have over 7600 miles and only one time did i need to plug in for a "park and sit" trip and that was the meetup we had in Feb. its funny because I did have other business with my dealer and had it been summer, i am pretty sure that i would not have had to take much extra time at all ( I also did some unplanned side trips)

i have plugged in other places to get a charge that was required for me to get home but in all 3 cases, it did not impact my schedule in any way. in fact, one place i had to share a plug with various appliances and did so without issue actually unplugging a few times to keep from hitting 100% SOC.

at this point the hype over planned installs of public charging is just that; hype. we dont really need it. it will take us most of us a month of driving the Leaf and incorporating it into our daily routines before we realize it.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
i dont see a "need" for more public charging to make the Leaf a major niche player.

That's the entire point.

Without DC charging, BEV's will remain "niche" vehicles.

With DC charging, BEV's will likely soon replace ICEV's as the dominant passenger vehicles in the nation's fleet.
 
edatoakrun said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i dont see a "need" for more public charging to make the Leaf a major niche player.

That's the entire point.

Without DC charging, BEV's will remain "niche" vehicles.

With DC charging, BEV's will likely soon replace ICEV's as the dominant passenger vehicles in the nation's fleet.

So a LEAF with a Tesla (aka ACP) 19kw charger would not do the trick? I disagree, even a 12Kw onboard charger would make a huge difference and I don't see charging as the primary issue rather cost of the car and other politics and misinformation. DC charging is not the big stumbling block. If the LEAF were priced based on it's econobox build quality it would be about $20K since a fully loaded JUKE with very option is $25 and built fat better. So a LEAF without the pack cost issue would be about $20 and even with that same range would likely sell very well, add a 12-19kw charger and watch what happens.
 
EVDRIVER said:
edatoakrun said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i dont see a "need" for more public charging to make the Leaf a major niche player.

That's the entire point.

Without DC charging, BEV's will remain "niche" vehicles.

With DC charging, BEV's will likely soon replace ICEV's as the dominant passenger vehicles in the nation's fleet.

So a LEAF with a Tesla (aka ACP) 19kw charger would not do the trick? I disagree, even a 12Kw onboard charger would make a huge difference and I don't see charging as the primary issue rather cost of the car and other politics and misinformation. DC charging is not the big stumbling block. If the LEAF were priced based on it's econobox build quality it would be about $20K since a fully loaded JUKE with very option is $25 and built fat better. So a LEAF without the pack cost issue would be about $20 and even with that same range would likely sell very well, add a 12-19kw charger and watch what happens.

And where can you recharge a LEAF or any other BEV with a 12 kWh or 19 kWh on-board charger? Not using the J 1772 L2 network. So, we we should put a third charge port on every BEV, and another network of (less slow) AC stations in?

Why "reinvent the Wheel" by putting a (probably) less efficient and slower charger in each EV, when DC charging is faster and cheaper, when the cost is calculated over the entire fleet?
 
edatoakrun said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i dont see a "need" for more public charging to make the Leaf a major niche player.

That's the entire point.

Without DC charging, BEV's will remain "niche" vehicles.

With DC charging, BEV's will likely soon replace ICEV's as the dominant passenger vehicles in the nation's fleet.

that is not possible WITH ANY CAR.

i think we need to get away from "niche" meaning a small slice of life. the estimated need of a BEV with a 100 mile range that recharges overnight at home is something like 15 million vehicles. it will take Nissan more than 10 years to fill that need.

granted; others will help but the more you put out there, the more people will change THEIR needs to make EVs work.

i changed my needs to make the Leaf work...but after 7 months; the biggest thing i realized; i simply did not change much. only drive the Prius less than expected which is the only change from the plan we had envisioned
 
TonyWilliams said:
I wonder if the battery is capable of this? Would smoke start coming out?

:shock:
The Epyon guys did it in their viral video. We don't know if there was any tangible battery degradation, but there was definitely no smoke coming out of the car ;-)
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
edatoakrun said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i dont see a "need" for more public charging to make the Leaf a major niche player.

That's the entire point.

Without DC charging, BEV's will remain "niche" vehicles.

With DC charging, BEV's will likely soon replace ICEV's as the dominant passenger vehicles in the nation's fleet.

that is not possible WITH ANY CAR.

i think we need to get away from "niche" meaning a small slice of life. the estimated need of a BEV with a 100 mile range that recharges overnight at home is something like 15 million vehicles. it will take Nissan more than 10 years to fill that need.

granted; others will help but the more you put out there, the more people will change THEIR needs to make EVs work.

i changed my needs to make the Leaf work...but after 7 months; the biggest thing i realized; i simply did not change much. only drive the Prius less than expected which is the only change from the plan we had envisioned

Too bad you can't sell the Prius...

It's very expensive and inefficient to require drivers to own a "back-up" ICEV vehicle. Few Americans will buy BEV's until fast charge stations are available for precisely this reason.

What do you mean by:

that is not possible WITH ANY CAR.
?
 
EVDRIVER said:
add a 12-19kw charger and watch what happens.

Yes, these chargers in the car will be the CHEAPEST way to expand the utility of the car. The L2 design can handle it now, many homes can handle it now, and the car / battery can handle it. Just change those relatively cheap chargers.

L2 equipped gas stations are more likely FAR cheaper than L3 equipment. 240 volt service is available virtually everywhere in the USA; 480 volt (for L3) is not.
 
With fast chargers every 40 miles along interstate highways the Nissan Leaf could go almost any where. It is so obvious that it is going to happen soon. Happily many sections of interstate have high voltage lines nearby. For camping trips, rent.
 
edatoakrun said:
Too bad you can't sell the Prius...
cant sell Prius because have to have 2 cars and cannot afford another Leaf right now.

It's very expensive and inefficient to require drivers to own a "back-up" ICEV vehicle. Few Americans will buy BEV's until fast charge stations are available for precisely this reason.

i agree it is expensive to maintain a backup vehicle. insurance is thru the roof. thank god i can find many way to ultilize it like having my SO use it on her commute since we work different hours, different days and in different cities that are in opposite directions from our house

What do you mean by:

that is not possible WITH ANY CAR.
?

try hauling yard waste, a trailer a boat, etc. with a Leaf or any other passenger car for that matter.

try carrying a family of 6 in medium car.

there is nothing but niche cars here. our transportation needs simply are too diverse for any one vehicle to match the needs of a majority of them.
 
edatoakrun said:
And where can you recharge a LEAF or any other BEV with a 12 kWh or 19 kWh on-board charger? Not using the J 1772 L2 network. So, we we should put a third charge port on every BEV, and another network of (less slow) AC stations in?

Why "reinvent the Wheel" by putting a (probably) less efficient and slower charger in each EV, when DC charging is faster and cheaper, when the cost is calculated over the entire fleet?


The J1772 L2 standard is, in fact, specifically designed for 19 kWh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

"round connector design by Yazaki which allows for an increased power delivery of up to 19.2 kW delivered via single phase 120–240 V AC at up to 80 amperes."

So, yes, the EVSE's would need 100 amp service, and the chargers on the car updated to 19.2kW.

The issue with 480 volts makes L3 quite limited to where it could be installed.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
edatoakrun said:
Too bad you can't sell the Prius...
cant sell Prius because have to have 2 cars and cannot afford another Leaf right now.

It's very expensive and inefficient to require drivers to own a "back-up" ICEV vehicle. Few Americans will buy BEV's until fast charge stations are available for precisely this reason.


i agree it is expensive to maintain a backup vehicle. insurance is thru the roof. thank god i can find many way to ultilize it like having my SO use it on her commute since we work different hours, different days and in different cities that are in opposite directions from our house

What do you mean by:

that is not possible WITH ANY CAR.
?

try hauling yard waste, a trailer a boat, etc. with a Leaf or any other passenger car for that matter.

try carrying a family of 6 in medium car.

there is nothing but niche cars here. our transportation needs simply are too diverse for any one vehicle to match the needs of a majority of them.

I disagree. I lived in pickup country for 35 years and most people didn't need them although they had the usual excuses of why they did. The members of my family who have SUVs put up with a less comfortable vehicle for the illusion of safety.
 
Desertstraw said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
edatoakrun said:
Too bad you can't sell the Prius...
cant sell Prius because have to have 2 cars and cannot afford another Leaf right now.


try hauling yard waste, a trailer a boat, etc. with a Leaf or any other passenger car for that matter.

try carrying a family of 6 in medium car.

there is nothing but niche cars here. our transportation needs simply are too diverse for any one vehicle to match the needs of a majority of them.

I disagree. I lived in pickup country for 35 years and most people didn't need them although they had the usual excuses of why they did. The members of my family who have SUVs put up with a less comfortable vehicle for the illusion of safety.


for the last 5 years that i owned a pickup. i paid insurance on it, licensed it, etc. and used it about 3 times. (each time it was to move and it was not needed as there were SEVERAL other trucks involved in the move as well)

the last time i needed a truck, i borrowed it. it cost me $20 in gas (probably burned about half that much) which was the way to go.

i think "special use" vehicles should explode in the rental arena. but still know a lot of people who have a truck for the 10 times a year they go camping, boating, etc.
 
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