Hill Climb -- the Mt Baldy run

[sparky]

Spur of the moment, decided to try and make a run up to Mt Baldy. Mt Wilson is closer and more to my liking since there's a ski run within ~35 mi of my house. But, that road has been closed due to fire and floods for many months now.

From my house it's about 30 mi to get to the hill climb part of Mt Baldy but last weekend I visited the SoCal Edison CTAC facility which has 8 ChargePoint Stations available 24/7. So, I figured I'd drive there and add a few miles to my SOC before heading up Baldy. I really like the ChargePoint system so far. They just released an iPhone app which among other things, allows you to activate a station without your card... cool. I think these guys are off to a great start with the public EVSEs.
But, I digress.

My LEAF juicing up

While I charged, I used the iPhone app "MapMyRide" to plot a route (23.6mi) and get the elevation change: ~3600 ft; all +


Left CTAC with 8 bars of SOC and reset my miles/kWh meter.

In ECO mode, 23.6 mi 3600ft and 5 battery-bars later I made it to Mt Baldy village and hiked around for a few mins.
2.5 mi/kWh at the top on my energy meter.
Beautiful day and yet a thin film of smog was starting to rise above the LA basin below... wasn't me!
(yeah, I'm lookin' at you Prius)

Three bars showing when I arrived. I kept it at the speed limit the whole way (35-45 mph), climate control off (it wasn't needed). I had 16 mi showing when I arrived and about 40 miles to make it home. I was really hoping the regen would give me a real SOC boost when I got to the bottom (in a hurry, had to get to this thing; at this place). I had this vision of getting two bars (~16%) back on the way down.
But, nothing! Three bars of SOC at the top and 3 bars at the bottom. Cranking 10-30 kW of regen the whole way down. Yeah, the miles meter went up from 16 to 57 (4.7 mi / kWh at the bottom) but we know that thing is pretty useless.
Anyway, fun trip. Surprised about the regen but the LEAF had no trouble with the hill climb. Fun in the twisty parts coming down also!

 

[EVDRIVER]

I assume the bars can go back up so perhaps you were just about to drop one and the regen just put you back? No reason for an SOC meter right Nissan?

 

[Kataphn]

So Sparky, did you stop at CTAC on the way home in order to get more miles for the return trip? Are those EVSEs available 24/7? Great report! I love going up to Baldy for a day trip. Love the old school restaurant in the village there.

 

[Stoaty]

Great report, thanks. I'm surprised too that you didn't get more charge on the battery from the regen on the way down.

 

[Randy3]

That experience is similar to mine - going downhill doesn't seem to get you more bars, but it does get you (many) more miles before you lose the bar that you're on when you start the trip down.

 

[TomT]

Just to be fair, the AQMD and CARB claim that the vast majority of smog in the Los Angeles basin now comes from other than automotive vehicles.

In ECO mode, 23.6 mi 3600ft and 5 battery-bars later I made it to Mt Baldy village and hiked around for a few mins.
2.5 mi/kWh at the top on my energy meter.
Beautiful day and yet a thin film of smog was starting to rise above the LA basin below... wasn't me!
(yeah, I'm lookin' at you Prius)

 

[TomT]

I'm trying to figure out why this is the case since you should be generating a substantial amount of excess power downhill. The mileage number seems pretty bogus and useless to me since it is basing your range on the erroneous assumption that you are going to be continuing in the current mode of operation for the duration of the trip.

That experience is similar to mine - going downhill doesn't seem to get you more bars, but it does get you (many) more miles before you lose the bar that you're on when you start the trip down.

 

[sparky]

So Sparky, did you stop at CTAC on the way home in order to get more miles for the return trip? Are those EVSEs available 24/7? Great report! I love going up to Baldy for a day trip. Love the old school restaurant in the village there.

Kataphn, the CTAC charging stations are in an un-gated area. So, although not explicitly stated anywhere, I think they're open 24/7. A security guard stopped by to say hi while I was there, but the place was otherwise deserted.
I decided to forego the CTAC stop on the way home and pulled off the freeway and take surface streets when I got down to the bottom two bars.
It's amazing what a difference 40 vs 60 mph makes to your range. Arrived home with 2 bars and 14 mi range showing.

Just to be fair, the AQMD and CARB claim that the vast majority of smog in the Los Angeles basin now comes from other than automotive vehicles.

True, but I've got the "ZeroEmissions" thingy on my door. So, those Prius types don't really know if they made a little of the brown air. I know me and my PV EV are innocent (of some things).

 

[Adrian]

Just to be fair, the AQMD and CARB claim that the vast majority of smog in the Los Angeles basin now comes from other than automotive vehicles.

Last I heard, 80% + of the pollution in southern CA comes from mobile sources:

http://www.aqmd.gov/ej/CAC/federal_legislation.htm , see 3rd sentence.

 

[TomT]

Yes, which you'll note in that same sentence, includes just about everything on the planet that is capable of moving in some fashion. Cars are actually a relatively small contributor these days.

Just to be fair, the AQMD and CARB claim that the vast majority of smog in the Los Angeles basin now comes from other than automotive vehicles.

Last I heard, 80% + of the pollution in southern CA comes from mobile sources:

http://www.aqmd.gov/ej/CAC/federal_legislation.htm , see 3rd sentence.

 

[edatoakrun]

If I understand your post, you are surprised that in a 23.6 mile descent with net altitude loss of 3600 ft, you did not gain "bars"?

If you had a SOC meter, I expect you might find you actually expended battery charge during that descent. Even if regenerative braking is 50% efficient, you would only gain from the descent, half of the total energy expended for only that fraction of the five bars expended to ASCEND, minus the total energy expended to drive the car forward the 23 miles back down.

To rack up a bar from a descent, I think you'll need a steeper road. Can you find one?

Maybe when they plow the road over MT Lassen this summer (usually cleared of snow by late June or Early July) and IF I can find some charge option en route, I can give it a try. I think you can climb/descend over 2500 ft in under 10 miles from the peak, though the Southern approach may be even steeper than mine from the north.

What do you think, Chico bob?

 

[evnow]

Looking at this Bars vs SOC chart ...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2390

3 Bars means 20% to 28% while discharging and 24% to 32% while charging. Not sure how exactly regen works - but I'd say until 32% is hit, the 4th bar won't light.

How long was the descent ?

 

[TomT]

I'm not sure I understand this. The Mt. Baldy road is relatively steep and if you did nothing but coast down you would quickly be traveling too fast. On an ICE car I have to use brakes or a lower gear all the way down and I never touch the accelerator... In this situation I fail to see why an EV would not be regenerating all the way down and raising the SOC... Am I missing something?

If I understand your post, you are surprised that in a 23.6 mile descent with net altitude loss of 3600 ft, you did not gain "bars"?

If you had a SOC meter, I expect you might find you actually expended battery charge during that descent. Even if regenerative braking is 50% efficient, you would only gain from the descent, half of the total energy expended for only that fraction of the five bars expended to ASCEND, minus the total energy expended to drive the car forward the 23 miles back down.

To rack up a bar from a descent, I think you'll need a steeper road. Can you find one?

Maybe when they plow the road over MT Lassen this summer (usually cleared of snow by late June or Early July) and IF I can find some charge option en route, I can give it a try. I think you can climb/descend over 2500 ft in under 10 miles from the peak, though the Southern approach may be even steeper than mine from the north.

What do you think, Chico bob?

 

[Adrian]

This is getting off topic, but do you have a source you can point to? I'd be curious to see what fraction of the 80% cars make up. I'm sure trucks must be a major fraction.

Yes, which you'll note in that same sentence, includes just about everything on the planet that is capable of moving in some fashion. Cars are actually a relatively small contributor these days.

Just to be fair, the AQMD and CARB claim that the vast majority of smog in the Los Angeles basin now comes from other than automotive vehicles.

Last I heard, 80% + of the pollution in southern CA comes from mobile sources:

http://www.aqmd.gov/ej/CAC/federal_legislation.htm , see 3rd sentence.

 

[abasile]

Spur of the moment, decided to try and make a run up to Mt Baldy.

This is awesome! I think you're the first (English speaking?) LEAF owner to have done a real mountain climb and written about it. As a mountain resident and possible LEAF purchaser, you have my appreciation. I know Mt. Baldy Road well, having attended college just below in Claremont. (I used to enjoy bicycling up to the ski lifts at ~6000' elevation.) Going up to the "village", the road has some very steep sections, especially "Hogs Back" by the tunnels. The climb is challenging for many vehicles, so it is great to hear that the LEAF handled it well.

In ECO mode, 23.6 mi 3600ft and 5 battery-bars later I made it to Mt Baldy village and hiked around for a few mins. 2.5 mi/kWh at the top on my energy meter.

Roughly speaking, it seems that the additional energy consumption associated with the climb was close to what we'd expected, ~1.3 kWh per 1000'. That is encouraging.

Beautiful day and yet a thin film of smog was starting to rise above the LA basin below... wasn't me! (yeah, I'm lookin' at you Prius)

"More Pious Than A Prius", eh?

Three bars of SOC at the top and 3 bars at the bottom. Cranking 10-30 kW of regen the whole way down.

Unless there's a software glitch, EVNow's theory seems to explain this best (a bigger SOC spread than expected within "bar 3" due to different charge/discharge thresholds). The spread between 20% SOC and 32% SOC would be about 2.9 kWh. The descent from Mt. Baldy Village (~4200') to Baseline Rd. (~1480') in Claremont is 9.2 miles and about a 2720' drop. At 1.3 kWh per 1000', that would be 3.5 kWh in potential energy. At 50% efficiency, you'd pick up 1.8 kWh in regen, well below that 2.9 kWh possible spread for "bar 3". Also, perhaps Carwings would indicate the total regen kWh on that drive.

Maybe someone needs to try a bigger climb/descent to see regen add a bar to the display! Start the climb with more charge and do the Mt. Baldy ski lifts next time? ;-)

 

[Boomer23]

Cool idea for a run, Sparky! Thanks for doing the drive and sharing your details.

 

[awallis]

Thanks for doing this. Even if you you only added 1.8kw to the pack, that is still quite a few miles. Not as many as the descent, but 6 or so.

I think the issue here is not so much steepness but time. Though coming down through cojon pass nearby would be similar in elevation change, it is spread out over more miles. This would allow you to charge the battery more simply because of the slew rate of energy coming back in, assuming you don't have to use the accelerator to deal with traffic, which is a big if.

Anyway, regen is great, but there are no magic electrons that come from it in the end and the laws of physics still apply. But real life experiments like this allow us to plan and figure out range based on our own computer (brain), which generally outsmarts all the other ones.

Cheers-

 

[sproqitman]

Maybe when they plow the road over MT Lassen this summer (usually cleared of snow by late June or Early July) and IF I can find some charge option en route, I can give it a try. I think you can climb/descend over 2500 ft in under 10 miles from the peak, though the Southern approach may be even steeper than mine from the north.

IIRC, the southern route averages 6% for the last 20 km. Probably not steep enough for full regen. The hills I'm working with are too short for quantitative analysis, but you probably need a grade of about 9% for full regen. At 8-9% in ECO mode, I can leave my foot off the brakes and maintain 30-40 MPH. At 6-8%, I need to give it a little juice to maintain speed. At 10%, I need to use the brakes occasionally.

(I'm a cyclist, so I know the grades of the hills around my house very well)

 

[garygid]

It is also possible that the 0-to-30 kW "meter" is not "calibrated" correctly.

Even if the "meter" is Calibrated correctly:
If it shows 12 kW for a full 30 minutes, that should be "charging" with 12 x 1/2 = 6 kWh of energy (basically equivalent wall-charging energy) available to "push" into the battery, and directly consume by the car (electronics, heater, etc.). So, the SOC would not normally rise a full 25% (6 kWh out of 24), but the 12% required to add a bar (going from over 20% to over 32%) should be possible on a long, steady downhill.

Keep in mind that the Regen power might seem to be "over 10 kW" most of the time, and peak at 30 kW at times, but the actual average, if the accelerator is used at all, might be 8 kW, or 6 or even less.

It would be nice if the LEAF itself showed us the total Regen energy, without having to go to CARWINGS to see it. Does it?

 

[garygid]

Was it 3600 feet, or 3800 feet rise (4350 - 550 = 3800)?