Having second thoughts

[DrPowell]

That commute is much too long, checkerboard...you should give your place in line to ME.

 

[akohekohe]

In my situation There will be Occasional round trips up to 70 miles. freeway speeds are 70 miles an hour but i will only drive 60 mph. Trucks are limited to that speed anyway so i would not be alone. But i'd do is simply because All options have compromises. I would much rather choose. Driving a bit slower Then continuing To burn gas

You can draft the trucks and get really good miles/kwh.

 

[LEAFer]

You can draft the trucks and get really good miles/kwh.

That's true. Would make at least a 10% difference, maybe 15%.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The only real Second thoughts here;
do i really want a ev?
What am i willing To do To make it work?

All i can say is If you plan to drive 70 miles an hour You are apparently Not willing to do much.

Speed kills.
in my prius i'd usually get 60 miles per gallon in the summertime. Mostly because I simply drive a little bit slower. Others to do not , get 40 2 45 miles per gallon.

I do find Then i must allow More driving time. And yes I do have an extra 5 minutes To spare. Do you?

 

[MikeBoxwell]

I have to say, your range worries me. I think you are going to struggle to comfortably get 75 miles in those sorts of conditions on a day-by-day basis. If you could plug in and charge up at work, no problem at all - that top up would be enough even at 110 volts.

As a rule of thumb, my recommendation is always to work out your range, double it and that is the distance you need your electric car to achieve on the official range figures.

To give you an example with our Mitsubishi i-MiEV. The claimed range on the i-MiEV in the UK is 80 miles. I have achieved 92 miles once, travelling at speeds of up to 50mph, but using every eco driving technique in the book, except for pushing it or hitching it up to a donkey. :lol:

My wife has been conducting a series of range tests with the i-MiEV that we will be publishing at the end of the month. The figures you'd be most interested in are the freeway figures. Driving on freeways carefully at around 60mph will achieve a range of around 70 miles. Driving as you would drive any other car on a freeway at 70mph, without eco driving techniques but without using air conditioning brought the range down to just under 50 miles. Our tests indicate that using air conditioning makes a difference of around 15%.

In much colder winter conditions, the range drops further. You're not going to be driving your electric car much in the snow I guess, but when we're getting really cold weather the range drops by around 25%.

I've conducted economy tests on a number of different electric cars and I expect to be doing the LEAF tests this Autumn.

I always hate to advise people not to buy an electric car, but in your case I think you may want to try one for a few days before committing yourself, purely for the range.

I strongly believe that most people, if they drive conservatively, will get 100 miles. The battery capacity isn't 24kwh, but more like 30. 24kwh is the USEABLE capacity. It has an ECO mode that can give you 10-15% more so I know range will be no problem for most people, but competitors are spreading fud about it.

Are you sure the battery pack is greater than 24kWh? From my discussions with Nissan technical people here in the UK, they are telling me that the total capacity of the battery pack is 24kWh. Nissan have already released some real world ranges based on different conditions and they are not showing 100 miles in every circumstance.

I've driven the car and I know about the ECO mode. The ECO mode doesn't give you 10-15% more range on top of the 100 miles, it's using ECO mode that will allow you to get close to the 100 mile range found in the LA4 tests.

I know we're all very excited about the new Nissan LEAF, but at the same time there has to be some realism as well. I'd love to be wrong, but I think that people are going to have to modify their driving style in order to reach the 100 mile range shown from the LA4 testing.

 

[LEAFfan]

I have to say, your range worries me. I think you are going to struggle to comfortably get 75 miles in those sorts of conditions on a day-by-day basis. If you could plug in and charge up at work, no problem at all - that top up would be enough even at 110 volts.

As a rule of thumb, my recommendation is always to work out your range, double it and that is the distance you need your electric car to achieve on the official range figures.

To give you an example with our Mitsubishi i-MiEV. The claimed range on the i-MiEV in the UK is 80 miles. I have achieved 92 miles once, travelling at speeds of up to 50mph, but using every eco driving technique in the book, except for pushing it or hitching it up to a donkey. :lol:

My wife has been conducting a series of range tests with the i-MiEV that we will be publishing at the end of the month. The figures you'd be most interested in are the freeway figures. Driving on freeways carefully at around 60mph will achieve a range of around 70 miles. Driving as you would drive any other car on a freeway at 70mph, without eco driving techniques but without using air conditioning brought the range down to just under 50 miles. Our tests indicate that using air conditioning makes a difference of around 15%.

In much colder winter conditions, the range drops further. You're not going to be driving your electric car much in the snow I guess, but when we're getting really cold weather the range drops by around 25%.

I've conducted economy tests on a number of different electric cars and I expect to be doing the LEAF tests this Autumn.

I always hate to advise people not to buy an electric car, but in your case I think you may want to try one for a few days before committing yourself, purely for the range.

I strongly believe that most people, if they drive conservatively, will get 100 miles. The battery capacity isn't 24kwh, but more like 30. 24kwh is the USEABLE capacity. It has an ECO mode that can give you 10-15% more so I know range will be no problem for most people, but competitors are spreading fud about it.

Are you sure the battery pack is greater than 24kWh? From my discussions with Nissan technical people here in the UK, they are telling me that the total capacity of the battery pack is 24kWh. Nissan have already released some real world ranges based on different conditions and they are not showing 100 miles in every circumstance.

I've driven the car and I know about the ECO mode. The ECO mode doesn't give you 10-15% more range on top of the 100 miles, it's using ECO mode that will allow you to get close to the 100 mile range found in the LA4 tests.

I know we're all very excited about the new Nissan LEAF, but at the same time there has to be some realism as well. I'd love to be wrong, but I think that people are going to have to modify their driving style in order to reach the 100 mile range shown from the LA4 testing.

Well, like Dave said, if you drive slower, use ECO mode, (I usually drive around 60 tops) and do a little hypermiling, I'll bet my bottom dollar we will achieve more than 100 mpg on the hwy.

 

[AndyH]

Are you sure the battery pack is greater than 24kWh? From my discussions with Nissan technical people here in the UK, they are telling me that the total capacity of the battery pack is 24kWh. Nissan have already released some real world ranges based on different conditions and they are not showing 100 miles in every circumstance.

Mike, we've had multiple conversations about this on the forum. You're correct that we absolutely, 100% do't know for sure - but we've got some pretty good info at this point. We've heard from Nissan folks (not bloggers, journalists, etc.) that the 'user' has 24kWh to work with. We've also been told by Nissan folks that we only have access to 80-90% of the ultimate pack capacity (ultimate pack capacity is larger than the amount allocated to the user).

This is standard 'battery pack speak' in industry - and confusing to folks not aware of the different 'capacity' figures. Petrol tanks are similar - they have a 'total' capacity and a 'usable' capacity (in tank fuel pumps are cooled and sometimes lubricated by the fuel they're moving - a totally dry tank generally equals a dead or at least damaged fuel pump).

We don't yet know how much larger. We have one user comment - from a gent that held the cells in his hand - that they're the physical size of 50Ah cells. We've another report that the cells are at least 30Ah.

All together - even if some of the 'user capacity' is held back for a 'reserve' function - we aren't likely to have much below 24Ah capacity to work with.

I've driven the car and I know about the ECO mode. The ECO mode doesn't give you 10-15% more range on top of the 100 miles, it's using ECO mode that will allow you to get close to the 100 mile range found in the LA4 tests.

This goes counter to what we've heard during US drives. There's still room for interpretation, sure, but when folks were driving the car slowly, the computer said they had 134 miles of range in normal mode - and the Nissan rep said that ECO mode would provide more range.

The LA4/UDDS test docs that I've read - the ones that outline step by step how the tests are run for EVs - appear to require the vehicle to stay in 'normal operating mode' because the point of the tests is to provide a level comparison tool between vehicles that may have different options.

Ta
Andy

 

[mwalsh]

Gotta back that one up too....we've heard 24kwH usable direct from the horses mouth. If I had to be blunt, from what I've heard on other venues, the Nissan folks in the UK seem to be where the Nissan folks were here a couple of months ago.....they're not quite sure what's what with the car just yet. As they become more familiar with it, I expect they'll stop talking tosh. Just like the floor level Nissan folks here have. Well, mostly. :lol:

 

[EVDRIVER]

Gotta back that one up too....we've heard 24kwH usable direct from the horses mouth. If I had to be blunt, from what I've heard on other venues, the Nissan folks in the UK seem to be where the Nissan folks were here a couple of months ago.....they're not quite sure what's what with the car just yet. As they become more familiar with it, I expect they'll stop talking tosh. Just like the floor level Nissan folks here have. Well, mostly. :lol:

This makes sense to me as I can't se a vehicle of this weight not needing that full 24kwh to make the numbers.

 

[AndyH]

This makes sense to me as I can't se a vehicle of this weight not needing that full 24kwh to make the numbers.

Why am I not surprised that you 'went there'?

Come on, man - the car's CURVY, not plus-sized! :lol:

 

[Rat]

Speaking of far afield, this thread has gotten totally off topic from its title. From page 2 to here, so far as I can tell not a single post had to do with having second thoughts. For the sake of those of us who don't have time to read every single post in every single thread, can we all please stick to the topic in the title. There are threads elsewhere dealing with every topic that has been discussed in this one. My plea. Thanks.

As for second thoughts, I am not having second thoughts about buying a Leaf, but I am having second thoughts about two of the related aspects. First, I am now doubtful I will get the Level II charger from any source, at least not at the beginning. Maybe after a few months if I find I need to, I will. Second, I am considering upgrading from the SV to SL. My reasons:

1. The AV quotes are coming in outrageously high for the Lev. II EVSE's. I don't have mine yet, after 5 weeks from date of assessment, but with a 100' wire run, I expect it to be on the high end, which now is turning out to be over $5,000 for some. I'm just not going to pay that. If it comes in that high I will make do with Lev. I as long as I can, which I think will be relatively easy since I rarely drive more than 30 mi. a day, often less than 10. I also can switch with my wife on days when I have longer drives since she also rarely drives more than 10.

2. However, since the Bay Area has committed (especially the recent announcement by the BAAQMD) to putting in EVSE stations, both commercial and home, I realize there could be times when both my wife and I need to travel a distance and I may just need to charge quicker than Lev. I, in which case, I could just drive to an EV "filling station" to get Lev. III charging, which of course would require the SL port. If they pay for the home charger, then I'll get Lev. II EVSE at home, but probably not the AV one unless that's the only one that qualifies for subsidies. Of course, maybe I'll get lucky and AV will come in with a reasonable quote.

 

[Zythryn]

Sort of having second thoughts.
Latest word I have heard of for availability in my area, MN, is summer to fall of 2011.
Latest rumor I heard about the availability of the Tesla Model S sedan is 'early 2012.
If the Leaf has competition from another EV and the other EV has better range, I will probably go with the other.
If a 200 mile range sedan is available to me within 6 months of the Leaf, I will probably hold off and get the better range.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Sort of having second thoughts.
Latest word I have heard of for availability in my area, MN, is summer to fall of 2011.
Latest rumor I heard about the availability of the Tesla Model S sedan is 'early 2012.
If the Leaf has competition from another EV and the other EV has better range, I will probably go with the other.
If a 200 mile range sedan is available to me within 6 months of the Leaf, I will probably hold off and get the better range.

If you mean a 200 mile range EV in even the next year under $100K the chances are slim to none. You could ship a Leaf cross country for a little more than the savings the LA leaf dealers are offering and have one sooner.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It's always difficult To predict upgrade cycles especially in the technology area. It will take a large leap in battery technology to significantly increase the range without increasing the cost. D tesla is out Of my price range So i would not buy it Even if i can pick it up today. I personally do not see Anything significant Happening in less than 3 years. i do however see a major shortage of leafs decade usually last 3 years. The prius was in high demand and short supply all the way up to fall of 2006. which is almost exactly 3 years from it's gen 2 launch. Datw

 

[Boomer23]

Speaking of far afield, this thread has gotten totally off topic from its title. From page 2 to here, so far as I can tell not a single post had to do with having second thoughts. For the sake of those of us who don't have time to read every single post in every single thread, can we all please stick to the topic in the title. There are threads elsewhere dealing with every topic that has been discussed in this one. My plea. Thanks.

As for second thoughts, I am not having second thoughts about buying a Leaf, but I am having second thoughts about two of the related aspects. First, I am now doubtful I will get the Level II charger from any source, at least not at the beginning. Maybe after a few months if I find I need to, I will. Second, I am considering upgrading from the SV to SL. My reasons:

1. The AV quotes are coming in outrageously high for the Lev. II EVSE's. I don't have mine yet, after 5 weeks from date of assessment, but with a 100' wire run, I expect it to be on the high end, which now is turning out to be over $5,000 for some. I'm just not going to pay that. If it comes in that high I will make do with Lev. I as long as I can, which I think will be relatively easy since I rarely drive more than 30 mi. a day, often less than 10. I also can switch with my wife on days when I have longer drives since she also rarely drives more than 10.

2. However, since the Bay Area has committed (especially the recent announcement by the BAAQMD) to putting in EVSE stations, both commercial and home, I realize there could be times when both my wife and I need to travel a distance and I may just need to charge quicker than Lev. I, in which case, I could just drive to an EV "filling station" to get Lev. III charging, which of course would require the SL port. If they pay for the home charger, then I'll get Lev. II EVSE at home, but probably not the AV one unless that's the only one that qualifies for subsidies. Of course, maybe I'll get lucky and AV will come in with a reasonable quote.

Have you read the post about the cost and availability of L3 charging on your Leaf SL? Apparently, it's going to be in very limited supply and about a $700 option unless you are in one of the government programs, where they provide it at no charge.

If you're not in a special program, push Nissan hard to provide L3 charging with better availability and at a reasonable cost. Otherwise your plan to drive to an EV filling station won't do you any good.

 

[Zythryn]

If you mean a 200 mile range EV in even the next year under $100K the chances are slim to none. You could ship a Leaf cross country for a little more than the savings the LA leaf dealers are offering and have one sooner.

I thought out of state orders were not allowed?
In any event, what you say may be true, which is why I used a number of IFS
The 100 mile range is cutting it close for me depending upon performance in the winter. If the heater, temperature and road conditions lower my range under 75 miles, it will not be the best solution for me. So IF there is competion with better range, they will likely get my business (IF my real world driving range is cut below 75 miles).

I am not saying I won't be buying a Leaf, just that, as the thread title states, I am having second thoughts.

 

[LEAFfan]

If you mean a 200 mile range EV in even the next year under $100K the chances are slim to none. You could ship a Leaf cross country for a little more than the savings the LA leaf dealers are offering and have one sooner.

I thought out of state orders were not allowed?
In any event, what you say may be true, which is why I used a number of IFS
The 100 mile range is cutting it close for me depending upon performance in the winter. If the heater, temperature and road conditions lower my range under 75 miles, it will not be the best solution for me. So IF there is competion with better range, they will likely get my business (IF my real world driving range is cut below 75 miles).

I am not saying I won't be buying a Leaf, just that, as the thread title states, I am having second thoughts.

The Volt can't be ordered out of state, but the LEAF can.

 

[Zythryn]

The Volt can't be ordered out of state, but the LEAF can.

Excellent, thanks for correcting me

 

[evnow]

The Volt can't be ordered out of state, but the LEAF can.

Excellent, thanks for correcting me

Actually, Volt can be ordered out of state. This was clarified by GM ... NYT got it wrong.

 

[evnow]

Sort of having second thoughts.
Latest word I have heard of for availability in my area, MN, is summer to fall of 2011.
Latest rumor I heard about the availability of the Tesla Model S sedan is 'early 2012.
If the Leaf has competition from another EV and the other EV has better range, I will probably go with the other.
If a 200 mile range sedan is available to me within 6 months of the Leaf, I will probably hold off and get the better range.

Model S ? What is your priority number ? I think under best circumstances they will release a trickle of S'es in December '12. Rumor is that "special edition" model S in the beginning for $80K will be released.

Toyota's new EVs will probably have better range (150 miles ?) - and will also be released late in 2012.

The problem is - most of them will slowly start releasing vehicles in the same states Nissan is releasing now - CA etc.