Having second thoughts

[Checkerboard]

I'm on the waiting list, and already had the electrical charger hookup home inspection and quote ($2,100). We were one the earliest to sign up and reserve, but lately I'm starting to second-guess our decision to proceed with the purchase. Here are my concerns:

1. Hard to understand just what it will cost me to recharge overnight. I have a PG&E Smart Meter, no solar panels, and a 400+ average monthly electric bill right now. Why can't Nissan post the costs for their larger market areas? The idea of a new rate scale or second meter is a whole new layer of complexity; I want to keep it simple.

2. Cannot find out if the Leaf will get a yellow, or white, or any HOV carpool-lane sticker from California DMV. I have had one on my 2004 Prius since 2004, and it is set to expire in June 2011, as far as I know. No carpool lane privileges, no deal.

3. Range claims of 100 miles round trip are getting challenged in the press. I run the A/C, and heat in the chilly mornings. Freeway speeds in the Bay Area are around 70+ mph. Can I make to SFO and back- 75 miles- in traffic on hot days?

4. My electric panel is on the garage wall, is two feet from the driveway, just inside the garage door. I have two unused 220V circuits, a 20 Amp and a 50 Amp (from our spa, no longer used). I also have two 40 AMP electric outlets where the charger could plug in safely, right next to the panel. I feel like $1,100 labor, plus another $200 for a "permit", is a ripoff. It will take a guy maybe an hour to do it all.

Anybody else agree/disagree?

 

[trentr]

2. you will get a white sticker good until 2015. yellow will expire at the end of the year.
3. you need to plug in at work to be sure. ~75 miles is cutting it a bit close.

 

[Boomer23]

I agree, $1,100 labor is a ripoff.

If I were you, I would watch the Leviton threads on the Charging section of this site closely. You should be able to have an electrician tie the Leviton pre-install kit into your 50 amp circuit for very little labor cost and install the Leviton EVSE yourself. The catch seems to be that Leviton may require that the electrician be specially trained or certified.

Any update on that latter point, guys?

 

[Gonewild]

I agree, $1,100 labor is a ripoff.

If I were you, I would watch the Leviton threads on the Charging section of this site closely. You should be able to have an electrician tie the Leviton pre-install kit into your 50 amp circuit for very little labor cost and install the Leviton EVSE yourself. The catch seems to be that Leviton may require that the electrician be specially trained or certified.

Any update on that latter point, guys?

Hey boomer23,
how is your solar output? I have the same system with a little 6pm shading. This time of year I am getting about 31kwh

 

[Checkerboard]

Thanks for the great comebacks, especially the great news about the white sticker. Unfortunately, the Orinda to SFO 75 mile trip isn't my commute (no way to plug it in, since I would be at the SFO parking lot). It is just a typical trip we take to go to the airport, park for a few days, and drive home.

I'd like to know if there are any garages in downtown SF who will have chargers available!

And I too reserved on the first email day, 4/20! No clue when the Leaf will arrive... Thanks, Checkerboard

 

[DeaneG]

1. Hard to understand just what it will cost me to recharge overnight. I have a PG&E Smart Meter, no solar panels, and a 400+ average monthly electric bill right now. Why can't Nissan post the costs for their larger market areas? The idea of a new rate scale or second meter is a whole new layer of complexity; I want to keep it simple.

There are two costs for charging your EV under PG&E when you don't use a second meter:

1) Switching to the mandated time-of-use plan will jack up your present electricity bill (even without EV charging) if a substantial part of your usage occurs between 2pm and 9pm. Heavy air conditioner usage is how I boost my bill. This effect will cost me about $500 per year or $40 a month, even though my present average monthly electricity bill is only about $120. I sit in a dark room with the lights off most of the time. And they're fluorescent anyway.

2) Charging the EV on the E9A rate plan itself (sounds like you are in the top tier) will run you 19 cents a killowatt-hour after midnight. You can expect to drive about three miles on this kilowatt-hour. So your incremental cost per mile is about six cents, roughly the same as a Prius.

If you installed the EVSE yourself and for some reason forgot to tell PG&E about your electric vehicle (staying on the E1 rate schedule), you'd avoid cost #1, but as for cost #2, your incremental electricity rate would be about 40 cents per kWh any time of day or night, or about 13 cents per mile (roughly the same as a 25mpg gasoline car).

 

[Ready2plugin]

Thanks for the great comebacks, especially the great news about the white sticker. Unfortunately, the Orinda to SFO 75 mile trip isn't my commute (no way to plug it in, since I would be at the SFO parking lot). It is just a typical trip we take to go to the airport, park for a few days, and drive home.

I'd like to know if there are any garages in downtown SF who will have chargers available!

And I too reserved on the first email day, 4/20! No clue when the Leaf will arrive... Thanks, Checkerboard

Just a feeling, but I would be very surprised if SFO did not install chargers at the airport parking lots. Hopefully we will also get news of the EV Project for the Bay Area by the end of the year.

 

[DeaneG]

I forgot to say, adding cost #1 divided by your yearly mileage to cost number 2 gives your total cost per mile under rate schedule E9A. In my case at 7500 miles per year, that's $500/7500 miles + $0.06 = $0.07 + $0.06 = $0.13 per mile, again about the same as a 25mpg conventional car.

Standard counterarguments include: the EV won't need $150 oil changes, no trips to the gas station, we're saving the planet. These must be measured against the basically unlimited range but obnoxious habits of a gasoline car.

 

[planet4ever]

Caution: Deane is extremely conservative in his estimates. Conservative may be good; it avoids the possibility of a huge letdown once you really have the car. But most people estimate four, or even five, miles per kWh rather than Deane's three. That can dramatically reduce your fuel cost.

Of course miles/kWh is heavily dependent on the type of driving you do. If you really plan to spend most of your time flying down the freeway at 70+ then you probably should use a very low estimate. Personally I find myself driving sections of 101 and 680 that don't have diamond lanes, and do have heavy traffic at times. Not to mention what I hit on 4 every time I go to Antioch. (I've got grandkids living there.)

Furthermore, you don't have to travel with the fastest traffic all the time. I've slowed down to 60, which is about what most of the trucks do, and it really doesn't add much to my total travel times. The best part is that my drives are much more relaxed. Plus I keep thinking how many more miles I'm going to be able to eke out of my Leaf at that speed.

As for that round trip to SFO, traffic is your friend, but you probably don't want to do it on a hot afternoon unless you can get "rejuiced" at the airport. I have no idea how that is going to work. I wouldn't imagine other EV drivers would be too happy if you hogged a charging dock for two or three days. Ten minutes on a Level 3 charger would do the job, but it looks like Nissan may not provide the quick charge ports on 2011 Leafs it sells in our area.

 

[mwalsh]

1. Hard to understand just what it will cost me to recharge overnight. I have a PG&E Smart Meter, no solar panels, and a 400+ average monthly electric bill right now. Why can't Nissan post the costs for their larger market areas? The idea of a new rate scale or second meter is a whole new layer of complexity; I want to keep it simple.

Quite honestly, I don't see it being Nissan's responsibility to advise you on your electrical rates. You wouldn't ask them where the cheapest place to find gas is, would you? That said, it sounds like your utility is a complete rip-off. Have you thought about getting solar?

Cannot find out if the Leaf will get a yellow, or white, or any HOV carpool-lane sticker from California DMV. I have had one on my 2004 Prius since 2004, and it is set to expire in June 2011, as far as I know. No carpool lane privileges, no deal.

White sticker, good to 2015. Yellow sticker doesn't go through June '11, it expires January 1 just as it was supposed to do before they started messing with the legislation renewal.

Range claims of 100 miles round trip are getting challenged in the press. I run the A/C, and heat in the chilly mornings. Freeway speeds in the Bay Area are around 70+ mph. Can I make to SFO and back- 75 miles- in traffic on hot days?

Possibly tight. The only problem....we don't know yet, none of us has gotten to drive that kind of distance. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a plan to juice at work.

My electric panel is on the garage wall, is two feet from the driveway, just inside the garage door. I have two unused 220V circuits, a 20 Amp and a 50 Amp (from our spa, no longer used). I also have two 40 AMP electric outlets where the charger could plug in safely, right next to the panel. I feel like $1,100 labor, plus another $200 for a "permit", is a ripoff. It will take a guy maybe an hour to do it all.

You sound like a perfect candidate for the Leviton unit.

 

[Azrich]

My advice, wait and rent a LEAF when they are available. Try driving your route to work on a day off- with air conditioning blasting or with the heater on. If it looks like you won't make it to work, find a charger to recharge. I'm not sure I would get one with a commute of 75 miles in Tucson. I need the AC on high a lot of the time. My commute is only 44 miles. I should be fine.

 

[MaryC]

There is a charger now at SFO:
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94128_2.htm

As for electrical cost. I am on PG&E here in SF and for my GEM NEV I pay about $5 a month extra. So I figure the Leaf will cost me somewhere between $20-30 a month extra. I think until any of us have it in our hands no one knows for sure what it will be.

MaryC

 

[Checkerboard]

The Leaf might just be the straw that gets us to try solar panels. I saw one poster who used Solar City for his installation. Do any Nor Cal (East Bay) folks here on the forum know any reputable and affordable contractors?

Thanks to all.. you're refreshing our desire for our Leaf (actually, it's my wife who will sell her mid-size SUV for the Leaf).

 

[EVDRIVER]

There is a charger now at SFO:
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94128_2.htm

As for electrical cost. I am on PG&E here in SF and for my GEM NEV I pay about $5 a month extra. So I figure the Leaf will cost me somewhere between $20-30 a month extra. I think until any of us have it in our hands no one knows for sure what it will be.

MaryC

Those are old existing AVCON and paddle chargers but I would expect that to change or new docks to be added, these are scattered about the bay area and will not work on a Leaf.

 

[Spies]

Thanks for the great comebacks, especially the great news about the white sticker. Unfortunately, the Orinda to SFO 75 mile trip isn't my commute (no way to plug it in, since I would be at the SFO parking lot). It is just a typical trip we take to go to the airport, park for a few days, and drive home.

I'd like to know if there are any garages in downtown SF who will have chargers available!

And I too reserved on the first email day, 4/20! No clue when the Leaf will arrive... Thanks, Checkerboard

A place to check for chargers is http://www.evchargernews.com/

It does show charging locations at SFO but keep in mind that the Leaf will have the newer round charging plug so most if not all chargers will need to be updated first or perhaps an adapter will become/is available.

When I had my Honda EV Plus I was able to do 80 miles round trip in the bay area no problem and I hardly ever charged away from home. Sometimes I would park in the 5th and Mission garage and charge my Honda EV Plus when I had it. It did not need a charge but since I was paying for parking anyway I figured I would get some charge out of the deal. Keep in mind that the Honda EV Plus was rated for 120 miles per charge so it will be interesting to see what the real world comfort zone will be with the leaf in the bay area.

 

[Gonewild]

The Leaf might just be the straw that gets us to try solar panels. I saw one poster who used Solar City for his installation. Do any Nor Cal (East Bay) folks here on the forum know any reputable and affordable contractors?

Thanks to all.. you're refreshing our desire for our Leaf (actually, it's my wife who will sell her mid-size SUV for the Leaf).

I have solar I bought this year. I would not lease any system is it a waste. They put holes all over your roof and then give you very little off your bill. If you want solar buy the system if you can't afford it then you can't afford it save or move on. I know they will say how can you go wrong it does not cost you anything out of pocket. bla bla.. Yes it does cost you damage to your house with little to show for it. DO NOT LEASE.

 

[lne937s]

The Leaf might just be the straw that gets us to try solar panels. I saw one poster who used Solar City for his installation. Do any Nor Cal (East Bay) folks here on the forum know any reputable and affordable contractors?

Thanks to all.. you're refreshing our desire for our Leaf (actually, it's my wife who will sell her mid-size SUV for the Leaf).

Solar is really comming down in price. These panels will take up a lot of your roof (not as efficient per square meter), but the price per kW is pretty amazing:
http://www.atensolar.com/m5_view_item.html?m5:item=150-141
http://www.atensolar.com/m5_view_item.html?m5:item=200-109

If you can do some basic electrical and aren't afraid to get up on your roof and do some work, you can set up a 1.5kW system (should give you enough power to offset a LEAF's typical consumption in California), for ~$4000 before 30% federal rebate and any other local incentives. As solar tends to offset peak time of use electrical, ROI could be pretty quick.

 

[evnow]

Panels are no longer the price bottleneck. First Solar already makes under a buck PV. It is the installation.

 

[wwhitney]

If you can do some basic electrical and aren't afraid to get up on your roof and do some work, you can set up a 1.5kW system (should give you enough power to offset a LEAF's typical consumption in California), for ~$4000 before 30% federal rebate and any other local incentives.

What about mounting hardware and roof flashing? And perhaps reroofing, depending on the age of your roof?

My biggest obstacle to solar right now is that my house was built in 1910 with 2x4 rafters 32" o.c. at 8:12 pitch spanning 13 feet (horizontally). Way underframed by modern standards, and likely already overloaded from the original construction, since plywood and asphalt shingles likely weigh more than cedar shingles. The structural engineer in me can't consider increasing the load on the roof without beefing up the structure. So I either need to reframe part of the roof or get solar shingles that would weigh no more than my existing shingles. I guess I'll figure it out next year, at the moment I'm busy with my kitchen.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[DeaneG]

In PG&E territory, adding PV solar makes EV charging cost reasonable. Payback is in the range of 6-9 years for the system. You basically want to knock off only the higher priced electricity tiers and also offset your peak time usage. For me, this was about a 3kW system.

I had systems bid from Clean Solar, Grow Solar, Cobalt, and Akeena. I went with Clean Solar, waiting for the install now (long lead time).

Adding a dual meter instead of adding solar PV also makes an EV reasonable, but is not cheap. Payback may be in the 1-3 year range depending. But I thought I'd rather put the money into solar than into another meter.