Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[Nubo]

Well, I have it on good authority that the Phinergy retrofit will only work with the Nissan Leaf. What's 14 extra miles when you can get 1000 extra miles? :mrgreen:

I'm kidding, of course. I have no insight. I'm just starting rumors for the fun of it.

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Copyright © 2013 Phinergy

not a good sign…

 

[Fred]

Similar experience but different path. We returned our 2012 Leaf with 28 K miles and got a new 2015 Leaf. It is much quieter, probably due to newer tires, has more room in the back, I like the improvements (% charge view, lighted charge port, etc) and especially the more efficient heater. The 2015 vs. the used 2012 has an extra 20-30 miles of range after my wife's 40-mile commute in Seattle rush hour traffic, running the radio, lights, heated seats/steering wheel, wipers, and occasional heater/defrost in the winter. She's happy as a clam and her feet are warmer (That's a big deal!).

It seems a lot of the benefits of the Soul are not all that different going from a used 2012 Leaf to a new 2015 Leaf.

Doesn't matter to me anyway as I live in Washington State and the Soul's aren't available up here yet. BTW, my lease payment for the 2015 SV with Quick charge port are $295 per month with Zero due at signing. 24 months at 15K miles per year. I don't see a lease rate advantage for the Soul. And Free public charging for two years.

The few extra miles with the Soul aren't a make-changer for me. Battery degradation won't be an issue as I'll be turning the car in for the longer range Leaf in two years. I'm not holding my breath for the Tesla.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's always easy to tell others how many miles they should be traveling to fit into whatever paradigm that is important to the "teller".

I remember buying a Cessna 177 after owning a Cessna 172. Small changes (50 gal tank versus 42 gallon, plus 125 knots versus 105 knots) completely changed my 1100 mile trip to Montana.

It eliminated an entire fuel stop, plus shaved off hours from the total trip, which changed it from a two day trip to a one day trip.

The parallels are eerily similar in the EV world. My Toyota RAV4 EV "only" has a relatively small difference in overall range, but it is a world away in usability for my daily uses.

The CHAdeMO port on the RAV4 EV moved it into another realm altogether.

 

[nosuchthing]

@edatoakrun

My homework is done: I'm leasing. So, no matter what happens to the battery, it's a 3-year deal and bye-bye Soul. I suspect they will offer a bigger battery in 2017. Innovation is a must in this business. And I'll be free to look around once more for the best EV around.

Leaf to me now is like an old ex-girlfriend. I can't get over it how my attitude toward it took a 180-degree turn in light of enjoying the Soul and its amenities I never knew I missed. But the best thing is that 20-mile commute cushion.

 

[GRA]

It's always easy to tell others how many miles they should be traveling to fit into whatever paradigm that is important to the "teller".

I remember buying a Cessna 177 after owning a Cessna 172. Small changes (50 gal tank versus 42 gallon, plus 125 knots versus 105 knots) completely changed my 1100 mile trip to Montana.

OT: Ooh, my favorite GA aircraft for trips and sightseeing was a '74? Cardinal (pimped-out 177) RG that was owned by my friend's club. Easy 150 mph cruise (book said 170, but that was noisy), and because it used tach instead of Hobbs' time we could gain a tenth or two an hour by cruising oversquare at 25"/2100 (see 150 mph cruise). IIRR, we paid $28/hour dry, and fuel ran about another $12/hour in those conditions. No struts to get in the way of viewing the ground, and a sloped windscreen and aft wing so you could actually see traffic in the pattern when turning into them, unlike the 172 which required peering through starred and faded windows on top of the cabin, or else doing the wing lift rigamarole every time you wanted to turn. I always felt like I had to hunch my shoulders to see out of a 172 (the 150 was worse), but the Cardinal felt roomy and comfy, and I much preferred the control feel compared to a 172 (this one had been retrofitted with the inverted slat on the stabilator). My friend preferred flying the Club's '61 Debonair, but the Cardinal ran a strong second for him, and it was #1 for me. The fact that I could rarely get him to pass the Debonair's throw-over yoke to me may have played a role in my rankings , but really, if you want to sightsee a strutless high wing is far better.

It eliminated an entire fuel stop, plus shaved off hours from the total trip, which changed it from a two day trip to a one day trip.

The parallels are eerily similar in the EV world. My Toyota RAV4 EV "only" has a relatively small difference in overall range, but it is a world away in usability for my daily uses.

The CHAdeMO port on the RAV4 EV moved it into another realm altogether.

Yup, it should have had one from the start, because with one and the appropriately robust (and still lacking) infrastructure, it approaches the point where it could be many people's sole car. Range plus fast 'refueling' means an exponential increase in utility/convenience.

 

[GRA]

If you are working with extreme margin of Leaf ... that 14 miles may still be too close for comfort. You'll still have a lot of range anxiety - esp. in adverse conditions.

Personally I'd not switch to an EV with less than 150 miles EPA range (or nearly double of what Leaf has). That would give reliable 100 miles in adverse conditions.

update : I should add that those who fall exactly between 84 and 98 as the "needed range" is a vanishingly small group.

And if you are comparing a 3 bar loser leaf to a comparably degraded Soul EV?

If the leaf is 50 or 60 miles range and the degraded Soul EV is ?

It's not just the maximum range as a new vehicle that matters, every bit of range added on the front end is the possibility that the car is still viable after degradation.

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

Fortunately, there's no need to give Kia the benefit of the doubt, because, unlike the LEAF for the first two+ years it was on sale (and which they're still trying to weasel out of), you have a written, legally enforceable warranty to hold them to. Trust, Schmust, it's their dime if it falls short.

 

[Smidge204]

Copyright © 2013 Phinergy

not a good sign…

© My Nissan Leaf Forum - part of the MyElectricCarForums.com Group

:lol:
=Smidge=

 

[DirtDiver]

If there is one thing that Nissan can easily change to affect all Leaf's on the road, it's the app. I've been reaching out to them on Twitter and other social media routinely, in the hopes that they know we want a better app experience.

Look at what Kia gives, and it's easy to see just how behind Nissan's app is: lock, unlock? Yes...that would be a nice start.

 

[davidcary]

I personally couldn't use the extra miles - I rarely shoot to 100% anyway (free charging in the winter - sure).

But you have to agree that starting with a few more makes degradation easier to live with.

There was a post on the Tesla forum that going to the D was worth an extra year of life just because of the few extra miles. The person was using a 20k miles per year and got 11 years of life vs 10 before the 200 mile breach. Very different discussion with a Leaf but arguably each mile is far far more important.

I personally don't like the Kia looks. From my viewpoint, they are driven by punky kids. The Leaf may not be pretty but I fit with the usual demographic - an adult who could afford more but doesn't choose to. The fact that you share the sheetmetal with something that costs $15k is a negative for me. And I think it would be a deal breaker. Shallow I know....

Look forward a few years. A used Soul is $4k. No one bothers doing body work on it after accidents. Kids drive them so there are plenty of accidents. The distinctive shape reminds people of a trash car. People avoid parking next to you (perhaps a benefit). There is a reason body shapes change over time and this is one of them.

 

[apvbguy]

Let's face it. We all just have Tesla envy

Bingo!

 

[apvbguy]

It's always easy to tell others how many miles they should be traveling to fit into whatever paradigm that is important to the "teller".

I remember buying a Cessna 177 after owning a Cessna 172. Small changes (50 gal tank versus 42 gallon, plus 125 knots versus 105 knots) completely changed my 1100 mile trip to Montana.

It eliminated an entire fuel stop, plus shaved off hours from the total trip, which changed it from a two day trip to a one day trip.

The parallels are eerily similar in the EV world. My Toyota RAV4 EV "only" has a relatively small difference in overall range, but it is a world away in usability for my daily uses.

The CHAdeMO port on the RAV4 EV moved it into another realm altogether.

your story is 100% spot on, when I explain to people about the range and the variables of driving BEVs I always relate the experience of flying a plane. it all comes down to weather speed and range of fuel carried.
10-20% more range can turn a trip that wasn't within the capabilities of the vehicle into a doable trip.

 

[apvbguy]

all of the people who are concerned about the range of their BEV bought the wrong car, myself included, you should all be looking at either getting a Tesla or a volt. if your commute is more the 50 R/T those 2 cars are the only BEVs that will work for you.

at this point in time the majority of BEVs are not up to the task of long commutes without recharging. the lack of QC capabilities is another flaw in the mix.
these shortcomings relegate cars like the LEAF to being around town "town cars".

My LEAF lease is up next spring and it will be replaced with either a Volt/ELR or a gasser.
the BEVs (other than Tesla) do not meet my needs.
YMMV

 

[dhanson865]

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

But why are comparing '15 Soul EV to '11 Leaf ?

Yes, if you have a degraded '11 Leaf, Soul might be better. But, so is '15 Leaf.

As I said - people who dearly need those 14 miles is a niche within a niche within a niche.

I'm not comparing a 15 soul to an 11 leaf in terms of range, I'm comparing a futurely degraded leaf to a futurely degraded Soul EV in terms of range, doesn't matter the year. The point is when the 2015 leaf is a 3 bar loser however many years that takes I'm assuming the Soul EV that also degraded will still be ahead in range.

You seem to be focusing on the degradation and ignoring the additional capacity.

Whats the range of a Leaf with 80% of new battery capacity? What is the range of a Soul EV with 80% battery capacity? Might the extra range matter to someone with a commute to make?

 

[nerys]

For my personal set of circumstances the volt is quite literally one of the most expensive options available.

10 year Real cost is roughly $98,000 NOT counting repairs after the warranty expires 3 years in (100,000 miles) and not counting the 2 very expensive batteries i would have to buy in that 10 year span. It is as expensive as a tesla over a 10 year span.

I could buy 3 new leafs 1 every 3 years for that much cash and still have money left over.

The volt is quite literally a non starter. It is not even an option in the equation.

The prius is not far behind it at $78,000 over 10 years.

The leaf is $42,000 including 2 batteries plus any maintenance it will need after 3 years.

It is not even a vaguely close comparison.

Hell. When you include maintenance the leaf is comparable in ownership cost to a freaking geo metro. A used one. Which would require $36,000 in fuel alone in that 10 year span.

So yeah. I am willing to goto great lengths to surpass its limitatikns and make it work for my commute needs.

 

[Valdemar]

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

The thing is it is the worst but about the only pack scrutinized enough on record. There is just not enough data for other cars. There were reports Rav4 is losing 6% annually, my Leaf is losing 8%.

 

[nerys]

8%! Holy crap. I hope that is because of where you live???

 

[Valdemar]

8%! Holy crap. I hope that is because of where you live???

8% isn't too bad actually for my climate and driving. Welcome to the Leaf ownership.

 

[lorenfb]

You could argue that we don't know the degradation rate for the Soul EV but I'd argue that the degradation of the 2011 leaf battery pack is the worst on record and thus the mark to beat. I'll give the Soul EV the benefit of the doubt for now.

The thing is it is the worst but about the only pack scrutinized enough on record. There is just not enough data for other cars. There were reports Rav4 is losing 6% annually, my Leaf is losing 8%.

That's what most seem to forget, i.e. long term data, when 'trashing' the Leaf!

 

[TimLee]

8%! Holy crap. I hope that is because of where you live???

Climate is a significant factor.
But the LEAF battery loses capacity based on time.
I have lost around 5 1/2 % to 6% per year in Chattanooga.
But I also only do around 7,000 miles per year.

Your climate in PA is better.
But your high miles per year are pretty tough on it too.

 

[nerys]

If these batteries actually lose 6% a year under good conditions they are unsustainable without at least a 200 mile range.

I find such degredation hard to believe. Astonishing in fact.

Wow. I just chummed some numbers

6% per year would have you at 73% in 5 years. Holy crap. Now we know where their 5 years 60k came from and why they wont warranty it for 8 years. 61%

Ouch

So after 2 years 88% my car is 2 years old. Battery is at 88%. Double ouch.

I had thought it degraded that much because of how little the PO drove the car (4800 miles)

Now it seems that might be SOP? Ouch

Now i reallt have no idea what to expect as i put 30 or 40k on this car a year.

I guess we will find out ehh