General Charging Questions (looking also for advice)

[Shaka]

New LEAF owner (took delivery <2 weeks ago and the car has <300 miles on it thus far). Will be having my Schneider home 240v charger installed this weekend by a friend (who is an electrician by trade, so a nice side-job for him). My questions are hopefully rather simple, although one of them might come to be that of opinion..

Question #1
If you have a charge timer set for 80% ... assuming for a moment you have it set for 12-to-12 (so it "could" start right away) -- does it auto-detect that the car is over 80% and doesn't charge? I ask because this is technically my wife's car so if we decide to only charge to 80%, I'd still like her to be in habit of plugging car in 24/7 when she gets home. So I want to make sure it knows "hey you plugged in but you're at 83% so we don't need to charge, but thanks for plugging in anyhow" ... yes?

Question #2
We leased the car for 39 months at 1,000 miles per month. Our usual drive round-trip to work/home is 25 miles (we commute together). Evening driving for MOST days will be such that 80% charge may suffice, although some evenings/weekends we might want 100%. From what I've read on these forums, it sounds like we might see 20% loss of battery capacity after 3-years -- is that based on 80% charging or 100% charging? Better yet, a sub-question of this is ... being leased, with NO plans to buy car at end of lease ... should we even bother doing the 80% charging? (we don't get lesser electric rates at night, so thus far we've been doing 100% charging with no timers set -- and I'm trying to determine if an 80% timer with a morning end-time even makes sense for us)....

TIA for any help/replies/thoughts.... I can add more details if anyone needs ....

 

[adric22]

Your rate of battery loss will greatly depend on what climate you live in and how many miles you put on it. Based on the 25 mile pattern you are describing, I'd say you'd be just fine if you aren't living in Arizona.

As for the 80% vs. 100% on a lease. Good question. As long as you have absolutely no intention of buying the car and cannot see a situation where that line of thought would change, then I guess charge to 100%. I leased mine because it was the only way I could afford the payments. But I plan to buy at the end of my lease, which is just over a year away at this point since I've had the car nearly 2 years.

 

[cwerdna]

What area are you in? Can you update your location field?

That can make a huge difference re: degradation and might influence your charging habits.

The Schneider you refer to is an EVSE, not a charger. The charger's inside your car, under the hump in the cargo area.

 

[davewill]

You are correct, it won't start charging in that scenario if the car is already above 80%.

 

[LEAFfan]

Your rate of battery loss will greatly depend on what climate you live in and how many miles you put on it. Based on the 25 mile pattern you are describing, I'd say you'd be just fine if you aren't living in Arizona.

As for the 80% vs. 100% on a lease. Good question. As long as you have absolutely no intention of buying the car and cannot see a situation where that line of thought would change, then I guess charge to 100%. I leased mine because it was the only way I could afford the payments. But I plan to buy at the end of my lease, which is just over a year away at this point since I've had the car nearly 2 years.

It isn't so much the miles that degrades the BP as there are several drivers that have well below 10K
miles in a year, have babied their BPs, yet lost at least one bar. It's high ambient temps over time.

 

[Shaka]

Location has been updated in my profile, sorry about that. I'm located in Cleveland, Ohio (USA) which is going to get cold tonight, temps in the low-teens. However, the car is parked in a heated garage that I never let get below 45deg-F so that is something to factor in. It will be parked outside for 8-10 hours while at work in ambients, which can get pretty cold. Summers however are rather mild here-- rarely do we see triple digits. We'll have a few weeks in the summer where temps are over 90deg-F and of course a car baking in the sun hotter (the car is white, if that helps haha). My garage rarely gets over 75deg-F in the summer time thanks to being a brick house.

Today was our first day back at work with the Leaf. We've put some miles on it, but today was the first REAL commute with it. As I expected, the GOM showed full when we left and about half now. I'm seeing approx 5 miles per bar on the GOM, which is to say about 60 miles roughly range. We haven't gotten below "8 miles to go" was the lowest the GOM showed--- so naturally who knows what that really means. The battery temp has never gone below 4-bars by the way, even when it has been parked outside for a few hours (like today, from 9am-5pm it was outside)...

Based on my situation, I'm guessing what I'll do is once the Schneider is setup (yes sorry, EVSE not charger, oops!! rookie error there hahaha), I'll just plug it in nightly. The car, during winter, will be 50-60% battery left on most days and since we won't always go back out it seems that makes sense. In the summer, where the range may be such that I'd be plugging in at 75% .. I may skip a day here or there to plug in since it seems bad sense to charge when still at 75% (per manual, and the less than 80% rule). Does that logic make sense? If there are 8 bars or more, don't plug it in when not using a timer ya?

Thanks again for all the feedback....

 

[TonyWilliams]

... the lowest the GOM showed--- so naturally who knows what that really means. The battery temp has never gone below 4-bars by the way, even when it has been parked outside for a few hours (like today, from 9am-5pm it was outside)...

I wouldn't do 80% chargers if you are seeing "---" on the Guess-O-Meter. That is Very Low Battery (VLB) and if you click on the Range Chart link in my signature line, you'll see that you had only a handful of miles left.

I recommend charging to 100% in the winter for you. As to temperature, like many things Nissan, the display is non-linear and not completely logical for the consumer. Four temperature bars are between 26F and 50F degrees, which means your battery lost 5% to 10% of its capacity just from the cold at those temperatures.

In addition, whatever additional power draw that the heater takes, and loss of economy from driving through rain and snow really eats into range.


LEAF Batt Temp
Segments Degrees C (F). Temp difference
12----------60---------(140).........4.5F
11----------57.5-------(135.5)......4.5F
10----------55---------(131).........4.5F
9-----------52.5-------(126.5)......4.5F
8-----------50---------(122)........23.8F
7-----------36.8-------(98.2)......23.9F
6-----------23.5-------(74.3)......23.9F
5-----------10.3-------(50.5)......23.9F
4----------/ -3---------(26.6).......5.4F
3----------/ -6---------(21.2).......5.4F
2----------/ -9---------(15.8).......5.4F
1----------/-12--------(10.4).......5.4F
0----------/ -15---------(5).........5.4F

 

[LEAFfan]

... the lowest the GOM showed--- so naturally who knows what that really means. The battery temp has never gone below 4-bars by the way, even when it has been parked outside for a few hours (like today, from 9am-5pm it was outside)...

I wouldn't do 80% chargers if you are seeing "---" on the Guess-O-Meter. That is Very Low Battery (VLB) and if you click on the Range Chart link in my signature line, you'll see that you had only a handful of miles left.

I recommend charging to 100% in the winter for you. As to temperature, like many things Nissan, the display is non-linear and not completely logical for the consumer. Four temperature bars are between 26F and 50F degrees, which means your battery losses 5% to 10% of its capacity just from the cold at those temperatures.

In addition, whatever additional power draw that the heater takes, and loss of economy from driving through rain and snow really eats into range.


LEAF Batt Temp
Segments Degrees C (F). Temp difference
12----------60---------(140).........4.5F
11----------57.5-------(135.5)......4.5F
10----------55---------(131).........4.5F
9-----------52.5-------(126.5)......4.5F
8-----------50---------(122)........23.8F
7-----------36.8-------(98.2)......23.9F
6-----------23.5-------(74.3)......23.9F
5-----------10.3-------(50.5)......23.9F
4----------/ -3---------(26.6).......5.4F
3----------/ -6---------(21.2).......5.4F
2----------/ -9---------(15.8).......5.4F
1----------/-12--------(10.4).......5.4F
0----------/ -15---------(5).........5.4F

+1!

 

[Shaka]

Yeah sorry I use dashes to type, the lowest it has shown is 8mi to go (which we know isn't accurate on the GOM) ... but I typed "---" instead of "..." as some people do. Probably a bad idea since "---" has a meaning here on the Leaf forums hahaha...

Either way, your replies have ALL been great. I'm thinking I will do the following:
- Always charge the Leaf nightly in the winter, as it will most likely always be 60% or less remaining charge
- Charge the Leaf in warm weather when there are 8 bars or less remaining (approx 75% or less charge)
- Charge to 100% (and NOT use the timers) since my rates are linear daily, and this simplifies the process

One nice thing about the heated garage is no need to preheat the car in the morning. However, I do want the car to heat up when leaving work. I did have it go today, but it didn't seem like it ran/worked. Perhaps it was just that cold outside. Am I correct that the climate control timers work even if the car is NOT plugged in??

 

[Stoaty]

You can get an individualized guesstimate of your capacity loss from the Battery Aging Model spreadsheet on the Wiki by selecting the closest city:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bottom line, though, is that while you will have some temporary capacity loss in the winter, the permanent capacity loss will be significantly lower than average based on your climate.

 

[surfingslovak]

Agreed with what others have said above. Charging to full in winter should be preferable due to range concerns. You might be able to switch to 80% charging in the spring or summer.

 

[ebill3]

However, I do want the car to heat up when leaving work. I did have it go today, but it didn't seem like it ran/worked. Perhaps it was just that cold outside. Am I correct that the climate control timers work even if the car is NOT plugged in??

Yes, you can start CC either remotely or by timer if the car is not plugged in. However, if not plugged in, CC will operate for only 15 minutes. If plugged in, CC will operate for two hours max.

If you used a timer, I guess it was too cold for 15 minutes to do the job. Also, remember that the timer is an end timer - that is you set the time you want to depart, not the time you want CC to turn on.

I like to use remote start - 15 or 20 minutes before I expect to get to the car.

Bill

 

[TonyWilliams]

One nice thing about the heated garage is no need to preheat the car in the morning. However, I do want the car to heat up when leaving work. I did have it go today, but it didn't seem like it ran/worked. Perhaps it was just that cold outside. Am I correct that the climate control timers work even if the car is NOT plugged in??

With a preheated garage, your battery will likely not lose capacity on your first jaunt in the morning. But, if it sits outside for 8 hours during the day, that battery will absolutely be at ambient temperature.

Yes, preheating/cooling the cabin while plugged in is almost always a good idea (unless you live in a place that is 72F degrees everyday).

The climate control timers will run the system for 2 hours plugged in, and 15 minutes unplugged.

 

[planet4ever]

I would have two qualms about your plan:

• The combination of plugging in every night and always charging to 100% could mean that on a weekend day you might only make a two-mile grocery run, and so be charging a nearly full battery to 100%. The Warranty Information Booklet says specifically that: "This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by: ... Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state of charge level (98-100%)." I would note that the required annual battery report will forward statistics of any such events to Nissan.
• If you don't use a timer you will typically be charging the car early in the evening and leaving it at 100% most of the night. The general agreement here is that more time at 100% means more battery degradation. You might find your range constricting near the end of your lease.

Ray

 

[Shaka]

QUICK UPDATE ... in case someone reads this thread down the road.

With less than a month into our ownership, I ended up deciding to use a timer (that is set for every day of the week). I'm still leaving it at 100% for now but may drop it to 80% in the summer months once we see how efficiencies go. For now we need 100% as many days we find ourselves driving further down.

The timer is an "end only" timer at 9am, and the car has been consistently finishing charging about an hour before the end time as is typical per these forums. So it is set for when I leave for work, but the car ends up emailing me a finished-charge notification approx 55mins prior each day. Which is fine and this also limits how often the car is at 100% to just those 55mins!

Also, if the car is only at 80% approx, we don't plug it in. However, my round-trip drive to work has been using 4-6 bars depending on any side-trips on the way home or the weather. Based on that, the MOST we ever have seems to be 67% (based purely on the GOM/bars) --- so I feel charging it at that point is okay. Come summer time, we may find on days that our drive is ONLY for work we might only use 3-bars, and on those days I'd probably refrain from an overnight charge.

Thanks again for all the feedback -- these forums are GREAT!

 

[vrwl]

...One nice thing about the heated garage is no need to preheat the car in the morning. However, I do want the car to heat up when leaving work. I did have it go today, but it didn't seem like it ran/worked. Perhaps it was just that cold outside. Am I correct that the climate control timers work even if the car is NOT plugged in??

One thing you may not know... ECO mode reduces the output of your cabin heater, so if you're looking for heat while you're driving, either set the temp to 90 degrees if you're driving in ECO or switch to D and set at a lower temp. (I just found out this fact recently myself.)

If you have a smartphone, there's a Nissan App that will let you access Carwings to remotely start your cabin heater/climate control OR you can set a timer for your climate control to turn on automatically before you leave home in the morning. Because the heater is not getting its heat from a warm engine, it takes awhile for it to work, that's another reason why preheating the cabin before you leave is helpful. I usually let the heater run about 15-30 min at home before I unplug and leave. It will only run for 15 minutes if you prewarm the cabin via Carwings without it being plugged in, like if you did it before you left work.

 

[Shaka]

One thing you may not know... ECO mode reduces the output of your cabin heater, so if you're looking for heat while you're driving, either set the temp to 90 degrees if you're driving in ECO or switch to D and set at a lower temp. (I just found out this fact recently myself.)

I had known the A/C was reduced output by the ECO mode but was unaware of the HEAT also being reduced until reading that actually in another thread earlier tonight. This is good info to know, as the low temp this weekend one night is supposed to be 7-deg F, and the high that same day in the mid-teens. So yeah, some cold weather is coming.

My garage has a heater, but I usually let it go down to 40-45-deg-F as that seems reasonable for a garage and keeps things warm enough to melt the snow off the cars, etc. However, I may use the heater in the car on the really cold days just to make things more efficient. And on those days that I'll be leaving work in below-freezing temps, I wish the auto-climate-control worked when not plugged in as I don't have a plug-in spot at work sadly.

As much as I love ECO mode, I kind of wish the heater wasn't affected and only the A/C ... because I can deal with sweating ... but I hate extreme cold!

 

[vrwl]

Yeah, but the A/C doesn't suck nearly as much power out of your battery as the heat does.

 

[mrdcmills]

I have mine set for 00:10 to 23:50 and charge to 80% sun-thurs. I charge 100% Fri and Sat for extra juice on the weekend. Over 4000 miles with the 120v charger. Even though I am leasing, I do fine with 80% during the week. I make frequent trips and charge most of the day.

 

[TonyWilliams]

One thing you may not know... ECO mode reduces the output of your cabin heater, so if you're looking for heat while you're driving, either set the temp to 90 degrees if you're driving in ECO or switch to D and set at a lower temp. (I just found out this fact recently myself.)

That kind of defeats the whole purpose of ECO mode, eh? If you need to do that, I recommend just driving in D.