Free EV charging unconstitutional?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Rat said:
Setting aside all the political rants in this thread (I'm an independent, BTW), I was a lawyer for a local transportation agency once upon a time and we had to deal with the Calif. state constitution provision forbidding any "gift of public funds." I'm not going to give an opinion as to whether the NY lawyer is right since that would require examination of the NY constitution's wording and case law interpreting it back there. However, it is not frivolous to suggest that electricity does not constitute money or property within the meaning of the provision. Just because something can be stolen does not mean it is property. Typically criminal statutes now refer to "things of value" instead of "property", which historically has required something be tangible. In federal law (I was also an FBI lawyer even farther back) we had trouble prosecuting cases involving theft of digital "property" or trade secrets for very similar reasons. The theft statutes did not cover intangible things, or at least there was mixed case law on the issue, so Congress passed the Economic Espionage Act in 1996 to make it a crime.

In the transportation context, we had no trouble providing free "stuff" for public purposes, such as free or heavily subsidized bus/rail passes to certain groups (students, disabled people, etc.) which NY does also, by the way. Municipalities around the country give free land or long-term land leases to profit-making corporations, e.g. Walmart, in order to lure them there. They believe the jobs and sales tax will more than pay for the land cost, but it is still a gift benefiting a private entity, and not considered unconstitutional if it is for a legitimate public purpose such as providing this sort of financial boon to a city. I would be very surprised if providing free power to EV's in order to reduce air pollution and dependence on foreign oil was found by a court to be an unconstitutional gift of public funds in California since these are considered valid public purposes. There are various municipalities around here that provide free power to EVs and I've never heard of any legal challenges to it. I think most objections to the practice are political, with some see it as favoring some sort of liberal agenda and therefore it must be bad. I do know that George Schultz, Reagan's Sec'y of State and architect of his foreign policy, drives an EV (a Leaf, I think) and when he charges up, likes to mutter, "Take that, Ahmadinejad." A least so he has said in an interview.

I wouldn't be surprised to find the NY lawyer's opinion was heavily influenced either by his own political views, or, more likely, those of the board, council, or mayor of whatever entity provides him his living. There is certainly no obligation on the part of any municipality to subsidize EV drivers and I suspect the decision to do so around here anyway, is largely political, too, i.e. for reasons of voter appeal, not really for the purpose of reducing air pollution or national oil independence. Whether the glass is seen as half-liberal or half-conservative will depend on your political views.
I'm glad that a lawyer has weighed in on this issue. I did not say that it was frivolous to suggest that electricity does not constitute money or property. My intended point was that it is not frivolous to suggest that electricity does constitute property. I am not a lawyer but like you I was not making any statement as to whether the NY lawyer is right. One of the few things I do know about the law is that a single word can make a huge difference and laymen interpret the law at their own peril.

That being said, my personal views are that promoting electric vehicles is in the public interest and I hope that NY can continue to allow free charging.

I can understand the need for laws that would prevent government officials from giving away favors to individuals as an anti-corruption measure but it seems to me that the laws would want to target the “you scratch my back and I'll scratch your's” behavior where specific individuals benefit rather then the general public.
 
Rat said:
Setting aside all the political rants in this thread (I'm an independent, BTW), I was a lawyer for a local transportation agency once upon a time and we had to deal with the Calif. state constitution provision forbidding any "gift of public funds." I'm not going to give an opinion as to whether the NY lawyer is right since that would require examination of the NY constitution's wording and case law interpreting it back there. However, it is not frivolous to suggest that electricity does not constitute money or property within the meaning of the provision. Just because something can be stolen does not mean it is property. Typically criminal statutes now refer to "things of value" instead of "property", which historically has required something be tangible. In federal law (I was also an FBI lawyer even farther back) we had trouble prosecuting cases involving theft of digital "property" or trade secrets for very similar reasons. The theft statutes did not cover intangible things, or at least there was mixed case law on the issue, so Congress passed the Economic Espionage Act in 1996 to make it a crime.
questions for you
do you get a bill for the electricity consumed by your home?
is that electricity tangible?
does that fact that you pay for the delivery to your home of that electricity place a value on that electricity?

the question of the value of any electricity dispensed aside, the construction of the hardware necessary for the dispensing of the electricity and the upkeep of that equipment also has a value. just looking at the value of what is being away is a little shortsighted.
 
We provide public toilets in certain places on federal land, and free water in drinking fountains on federal property, so if giving away purified, fresh water (which is far more valuable than easily and cheaply made electricity) doesn't raise concern, then why not the ability to give free electrons to individuals to help reduce pollution in the air we all breathe? Do federal loan guarantees for green energy corporations equal the same? Except that the "freebie" benefits go to corporations instead of individual drivers of EVs? And if 'corporations are people my friend' then why can't real people reap some sort of benefit directly?

Oh yeah, it's the conservative whackjobs who still hate the black president, and the oil companies who want to kill EVs just wanting to complain in any way possible to block progress on EV adoption in the US......
 
hyperlexis said:
We provide public toilets in certain places on federal land, and free water in drinking fountains on federal property, so if giving away purified, fresh water (which is far more valuable than easily and cheaply made electricity) doesn't raise concern, then why not the ability to give free electrons to individuals to help reduce pollution in the air we all breathe? Do federal loan guarantees for green energy corporations equal the same? Except that the "freebie" benefits go to corporations instead of individual drivers of EVs? And if 'corporations are people my friend' then why can't real people reap some sort of benefit directly?

Oh yeah, it's the conservative whackjobs who still hate the black president, and the oil companies who want to kill EVs just wanting to complain in any way possible to block progress on EV adoption in the US......

+1
That last line is going to get you hammered by the conservative whackjob. :lol: :lol:
 
hyperlexis said:
We provide public toilets in certain places on federal land, and free water in drinking fountains on federal property, so if giving away purified, fresh water (which is far more valuable than easily and cheaply made electricity) doesn't raise concern, then why not the ability to give free electrons to individuals to help reduce pollution in the air we all breathe? Do federal loan guarantees for green energy corporations equal the same? Except that the "freebie" benefits go to corporations instead of individual drivers of EVs? And if 'corporations are people my friend' then why can't real people reap some sort of benefit directly?

Oh yeah, it's the conservative whackjobs who still hate the black president, and the oil companies who want to kill EVs just wanting to complain in any way possible to block progress on EV adoption in the US......
Just a guess but I would say that the conservative whackjob's agenda of "Just say no" to anything our President wants may have something to do with it.
 
Luft said:
hyperlexis said:
We provide public toilets in certain places on federal land, and free water in drinking fountains on federal property, so if giving away purified, fresh water (which is far more valuable than easily and cheaply made electricity) doesn't raise concern, then why not the ability to give free electrons to individuals to help reduce pollution in the air we all breathe? Do federal loan guarantees for green energy corporations equal the same? Except that the "freebie" benefits go to corporations instead of individual drivers of EVs? And if 'corporations are people my friend' then why can't real people reap some sort of benefit directly?

Oh yeah, it's the conservative whackjobs who still hate the black president, and the oil companies who want to kill EVs just wanting to complain in any way possible to block progress on EV adoption in the US......
Just a guess but I would say that the conservative whackjob's agenda of "Just say no" to anything our President wants may have something to do with it.


You think?
 
Back
Top