Fast charging to 100%

[GregH]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11914

Using the Blink 80% (73%) charge as reference.. looks like:
119A*378V = 45kW @ 30%
119A*390V = 46kW @ 40%
92.4A*392V = 36kW @ 50%
77.3A*394V = 30.4kW @ 60%
55.8A*394V = 22kW @ 70%
... into the battery.

I'll have to this on a charger that can go over 73%

 

[bowthom]

only really makes it harder for me to understand why people want to get a full charge at a QC...

You have raised more questions than you have resolved. Assuming that your numbers are correct, fast charging at above 80% is no faster than L2 charging. If this is true then why all the warnings about how harmful charging above 80% with a fast charger is to your battery? As for the harm that charging to 100% rather than 80% does, I have had my Leaf for 1 3/4 years, always charge to 100%, and still have 12 bars in this hot, Arizona climate.

"WHY" would be that I was making the trip to Manzanita and needed 100% charge to make the distance from Banks to Cannon Beach over the mountains in the cold of winter. 80% would have required a tow truck.

Fast charging on the AV unit, it slowed to 1 watt/sec (L2 rate) around ~95% charge. 3.72 kWh took 53 min. Yeah you got that right, charging from bar 10 to 12 was at just above the L2 rate 1.17 W/sec or 4.2 kW/hr ave.
On the return trip I charged from LBW to 9bars - 15.26 kWh in just 34 minutes. 7.5 W/sec or 23 kW/hr ave.

 

[davewill]

Fast charging on the AV unit, it slowed to 1 watt/sec (L2 rate) around ~95% charge. 3.72 kWh took 53 min. Yeah you got that right, charging from bar 10 to 12 was at just above the L2 rate 1.17 W/sec or 4.2 kW/hr ave.
On the return trip I charged from LBW to 9bars - 15.26 kWh in just 34 minutes. 7.5 W/sec or 23 kW/hr ave.

Bowthom, you should straighten out your units. W/sec and kW/hr don't make any sense. You probably actually mean Wh/sec and kWh/h, but even then I don't get your 23 number. Better to simply express it in kW, which is a rate of consuming electricity. 3.72kWh in 53min is an average rate of 4.2kW (3.72/[53/60]). 15.26kWh in 34 min is an average rate of 27kW (15.26/[34/60]).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

in a 6 KW charger, you would be charging quicker roughly above the upper 80% SOC based on my charging event. since i had so much free time, I should have tracked the charging rate by GID count but didnt think of it at the time.

guess will have to try it again one day... did a QC today... from 9% to 60%. took about16 minutes. Now THAT is more like it!

 

[TRONZ]

According to the Nissan Leaf service manual, if you begin quick charging below 50% SOC, the vehicle will stop charging once it reaches 80% SOC. If you start above 50% SOC, the vehicle will not stop charging unless there is an issue or the DCQC stops the charging process.

So thats what the Service Manual is for?!? Thanks for explaining my QC experiences.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I started at 44% and went to 98%

 

[TimLee]

How do you get the advanced option for more than 80% on a Blink?

My recollection is that the first screen gives something like 60% / 70% / 80% / Other as options.
Just select Other.
That will then give you options of 90% and 100%.
If you were low enough on charge, nominally under 50%, and the LEAF automatically stops the DCFC, you will have to turn the LEAF off, and go back through starting a Blink DCFC again and select Other and then 90% or 100%.
The LEAF always controls the DCFC, other than the Blink DCFC having option selections to have it automatically stop at a certain % charge.
The Eaton DCFC always continues to charge until the LEAF tells it to stop, or until you stop the charging.
Once the DCFC starts, you can hit the LEAF start button twice and you will be able to run the heat / AC and also watch the bars indicator on the LEAF (or in the 2013 watch the % of charge too).
I've used the Eaton more than the Blink, so I usually select other and 100% on the Blink.
The DCFC % does not correlate directly with the bars display.
I usually charge until I get 10/12 bars. (unless I'm in a hurry)
Going from 8/12 to 10/12 takes on average around 12 minutes.
While below 8/12 bars its less than 3 minutes per bar, sometimes <1 1/2 minutes for the first bar or two if you're at a very low starting point.

 

[LEAFfan]

I started at 44% and went to 98%

44% on the QC screen? If you have an '11/'12, it (Blink) will stop at 80% if 90%/100% is chosen and you started at 44% on the Blink QC screen. It's a lot different with the 2013. The % matches exactly and whichever % you choose, it will stop at that %.

 

[Desertstraw]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11914

Using the Blink 80% (73%) charge as reference.. looks like:
119A*378V = 45kW @ 30%
119A*390V = 46kW @ 40%
92.4A*392V = 36kW @ 50%
77.3A*394V = 30.4kW @ 60%
55.8A*394V = 22kW @ 70%
... into the battery.

Greg, I noticed your posted background. I would be interested in your comparison of the Leaf with the EV1 and RAV4Electric.

 

[TimLee]

Greg, I noticed your posted background. I would be interested in your comparison of the Leaf with the EV1 and RAV4Electric.

Great Question
GregH has an interesting electric vehicle history, having driven both Gen1 and Gen2 of the EV1.
Isn't the new 2012 LEAF going to be named Joulee3?

 

[GregH]

Greg, I noticed your posted background. I would be interested in your comparison of the Leaf with the EV1 and RAV4Electric.

Great Question
GregH has an interesting electric vehicle history, having driven both Gen1 and Gen2 of the EV1.
Isn't the new 2012 LEAF going to be named Joulee3?

Ha! This is veering a tad OT, but the latest Leaf would have been Joulee4 but after all the headaches with getting the personalized plates for Joulee3 and the synchronization with DMV for carpool stickers as well as just a bad taste in my mouth from the unfortunate demise of Joulee3 I opted just to stick with the default plates. My second EV1 was Joulee2 but the RAV4 didn't seem sexy enough to deserve a female name so it was Wattson. The old RAV4 was a reliable workhorse with a long lasting 100 mile NiMH pack but at 50kW of power it was a dog to drive (about the same as the gasoline RAV4 of the time). The new RAV4 is a whole different story.
I still have my 1997 and 1999 EV1 user manuals on my desk... The EV1 was a REALLY FUN car! Granted it was in the shop every other month, but Saturn had free EV1 rentals while your car was in the shop and all service was free so it was only a minor inconvenience. The Gen1 with Delphi lead acid was good for maybe 60-70 miles (just a tad less than a Leaf). It's funny, GM advertised it as 70-90 miles.. kinda like Nissan saying 100 for the Leaf. YMMV. The Gen2 NiMH EV1 could do well over 120 miles without much trouble as long as the battery was in good shape. I personally didn't find the Ovonic NiMH to be all that reliable and the practice of over charging to NiMH till it heats up then running the AC to try and blow air over a T shaped pack was.. well.. a hack. Later in life the Gen2 EV1 would wake up with 120 miles on the Guess o Meter but by 95 miles a fault in one of the cells would bring the car to its knees. I later re-leased my original Gen1 with a new Panasonic lead acid pack and it was a star performer! The guess o meter would say 95 miles in the morning and that's what I'd get. So in a sense, the Gen2 Ovonic NiMH and my refurbished Gen1 Panasonic lead acid actually had the same range

btw, the EV1 charged at 6.6kW and the RAV4 I believe was closer to 5.2kW... Now I have a Leaf that charges at 3.3kW. That's total de-evolution.
I've driven the EV1 from L.A. to Detroit and from L.A. to Montreal, New York and Orlando. With 3.3kW I wouldn't even consider driving the Leaf to Las Vegas (which I routinely did with the EV1). On the first trip to Vegas in 1998 I went with a friend (Bill Korthof) who drove a Honda EV+. The EV+ NiMH had 100 miles of range verses my EV1's 60 miles but by the time we got to Baker, I was waiting for him because he could only charge at 5.2kW and I was at 6.6kW.
I really hope I didn't make a mistake by not holding out for the 2013 Leaf with 6.6kW. I'm putting my trust for 2013-2015 in Chademo!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I started at 44% and went to 98%

44% on the QC screen? If you have an '11/'12, it (Blink) will stop at 80% if 90%/100% is chosen and you started at 44% on the Blink QC screen. It's a lot different with the 2013. The % matches exactly and whichever % you choose, it will stop at that %.

that could explain why it did not stop at 80%. I dont know what the station listed my SOC at. was using GID meter and it actually ran from 44 to 94%.

on the station the ending SOC was 98% so guessing we cant assume it went from 48% to 98%?

 

[Reddy]

PLEASE, don't quick charge past 80% unless NOBODY is waiting, and you absolutely need the range!! Please stay with your car when QC'ing and let others use it if they are more desparate. Move to the L2 if you need more after 80%. Also, pass the word to everyone else you see at QC's.

I just talked with a friend in Seattle area. He needed a 5 min boost charge after work to make it to a dinner engagement. There was a Leaf that just plugged into one of the new Blinks and decided "hey free electricity let's charge to 100%". There were 5-6 other Leafs circiling waiting for a charge. All of this at a station that hasn't been open more than a couple of months. There aren't enough stations that people can afford to be piggish, just for an extra $0.50 in electricity.

It's nice to see all of these stations being used, and it shows we need more, but please be reasonable.

 

[GregH]

There was a Leaf that just plugged into one of the new Blinks and decided "hey free electricity let's charge to 100%". There were 5-6 other Leafs circiling waiting for a charge.

EXACTLY why DCQC should not be free.

 

[LEAFfan]

I started at 44% and went to 98%

44% on the QC screen? If you have an '11/'12, it (Blink) will stop at 80% if 90%/100% is chosen and you started at 44% on the Blink QC screen. It's a lot different with the 2013. The % matches exactly and whichever % you choose, it will stop at that %.

that could explain why it did not stop at 80%. I dont know what the station listed my SOC at. was using GID meter and it actually ran from 44 to 94%.

on the station the ending SOC was 98% so guessing we cant assume it went from 48% to 98%?

Ok, 44% on your meter would be 54-55% on the Blink QC screen so it wouldn't stop when 100% was chosen.

 

[DarkStar]

According to the Nissan Leaf service manual, if you begin quick charging below 50% SOC, the vehicle will stop charging once it reaches 80% SOC. If you start above 50% SOC, the vehicle will not stop charging unless there is an issue or the DCQC stops the charging process.

So thats what the Service Manual is for?!? Thanks for explaining my QC experiences.

BTW, I monitored an Eaton DCQC last night. As the car charges it will slowly reduce the current into the battery as the SOC increases. By the time you get to about 80% SOC, the vehicle as decreased the charging current to about 6 KW (started at about 51% charging at 30 KW). I had to leave by that point, otherwise I would have seen how far down it would have dropped by 90%.

 

[DarkStar]

PLEASE, don't quick charge past 80% unless NOBODY is waiting, and you absolutely need the range!! Please stay with your car when QC'ing and let others use it if they are more desparate. Move to the L2 if you need more after 80%. Also, pass the word to everyone else you see at QC's.

Or at least put your phone number on a card in the window of your vehicle. I use one of these: http://www.evchargernews.com/chargingprotocol.htm - and I recommend them to everyone I know that drives an EV.

If someone gave me a call, I would absolutely let them know at what point they could stop charging or what time I would be back (if I was legally required to be charging to be parked in a particular spot).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

that could explain why it did not stop at 80%. I dont know what the station listed my SOC at. was using GID meter and it actually ran from 44 to 94%.

on the station the ending SOC was 98% so guessing we cant assume it went from 48% to 98%?

Ok, 44% on your meter would be 54-55% on the Blink QC screen so it wouldn't stop when 100% was chosen.

This was AV DCFC. no SOC selection option

 

[Reddy]

PLEASE, don't quick charge past 80% unless NOBODY is waiting, and you absolutely need the range!! Please stay with your car when QC'ing and let others use it if they are more desparate. Move to the L2 if you need more after 80%. Also, pass the word to everyone else you see at QC's.

Or at least put your phone number on a card in the window of your vehicle. I use one of these: http://www.evchargernews.com/chargingprotocol.htm - and I recommend them to everyone I know that drives an EV.

Yes, I was going to add that but decided not to. Under "normal" circumstances, the charge protocol sign should be fine. However, actually being present allows a person to see how many others are waiting, and start an impromptu conversation about charging etiquette. With the recent $200/mo lease deals, we are rapidly getting way beyond saturation, especially on the free QC's. When there are 5-6 Leafs circling the QC, it's pretty clear we need more stations. Eventually, Blink/AV will start billing for the electrons, and the problem will be less acute. But even then, people may not realize how slow the QC is after 80%. We need to help teach others.

As an aside, it will be interesting to see if an increased use rate is observed in the next EV Project quarterly report.

 

[Desertstraw]

Greg wrote:

Ha! This is veering a tad OT, but the latest Leaf would have been Joulee4 but after all the headaches with getting the personalized plates for Joulee3 and the synchronization with DMV for carpool stickers as well as just a bad taste in my mouth from the unfortunate demise of Joulee3 I opted just to stick with the default plates. My second EV1 was Joulee2 but the RAV4 didn't seem sexy enough to deserve a female name so it was Wattson. The old RAV4 was a reliable workhorse with a long lasting 100 mile NiMH pack but at 50kW of power it was a dog to drive (about the same as the gasoline RAV4 of the time). The new RAV4 is a whole different story.
I still have my 1997 and 1999 EV1 user manuals on my desk... The EV1 was a REALLY FUN car! Granted it was in the shop every other month, but Saturn had free EV1 rentals while your car was in the shop and all service was free so it was only a minor inconvenience. The Gen1 with Delphi lead acid was good for maybe 60-70 miles (just a tad less than a Leaf). It's funny, GM advertised it as 70-90 miles.. kinda like Nissan saying 100 for the Leaf. YMMV. The Gen2 NiMH EV1 could do well over 120 miles without much trouble as long as the battery was in good shape. I personally didn't find the Ovonic NiMH to be all that reliable and the practice of over charging to NiMH till it heats up then running the AC to try and blow air over a T shaped pack was.. well.. a hack. Later in life the Gen2 EV1 would wake up with 120 miles on the Guess o Meter but by 95 miles a fault in one of the cells would bring the car to its knees. I later re-leased my original Gen1 with a new Panasonic lead acid pack and it was a star performer! The guess o meter would say 95 miles in the morning and that's what I'd get. So in a sense, the Gen2 Ovonic NiMH and my refurbished Gen1 Panasonic lead acid actually had the same range

btw, the EV1 charged at 6.6kW and the RAV4 I believe was closer to 5.2kW... Now I have a Leaf that charges at 3.3kW. That's total de-evolution.
I've driven the EV1 from L.A. to Detroit and from L.A. to Montreal, New York and Orlando. With 3.3kW I wouldn't even consider driving the Leaf to Las Vegas (which I routinely did with the EV1). On the first trip to Vegas in 1998 I went with a friend (Bill Korthof) who drove a Honda EV+. The EV+ NiMH had 100 miles of range verses my EV1's 60 miles but by the time we got to Baker, I was waiting for him because he could only charge at 5.2kW and I was at 6.6kW.
I really hope I didn't make a mistake by not holding out for the 2013 Leaf with 6.6kW. I'm putting my trust for 2013-2015 in Chademo!

My response:
It may be OT but I find this response fascinating. Based on your experience, do you believe that the NiMH is a suitable battery for electric cars? They will be out of patent next year. Second how can the high cost of Li ion batteries be justified when you seem to say that Panasonic lead acid batteries perform better?