Ecopia EP422 tires suck

[ttweed]

In the first test they indicated how it was important to let off the gas when you start to lose it. I totally agree with that driving strategy.
In the second test once it started to slide they didn't let off the gas, they hit the brakes. I totally disagree with that driving strategy.

They didn't test the tires or the config of the tires, they tested two different driving strategies.

Yes, and neither strategy is the correct one for controlling oversteer, since they both involve shifting dynamic load to the front wheels by slowing the car, which exacerbates the loss of traction by the rear wheels that characterizes an oversteer situation. The proper correction for oversteer is to countersteer (in the direction of the skid) and gently apply throttle to shift weight to the rear of the car to increase grip at that end. This is counterintuitive for most drivers unless they have been trained in vehicle dynamics and practiced car control at the limits of traction extensively, and this does not happen in our routine driver training and licensing process. When the average person is confronted with the loss of control of a vehicle in a turn, their natural reaction is to slow the car (lift off the gas and apply the brakes). The resulting shift of weight to the front wheels is helpful in controlling understeer, but the exact opposite of what is needed to control oversteer. Thus, the recommendation to keep the best tires on the rear, and the reason that every car manufacturer tunes their suspensions to understeer at the limit of grip--it is the safest choice for the average, unskilled driver and reduces their liability.

TT

 

[BrockWI]

I checked the tread depth on my OEM Ecopia's, with 17k miles, they are all four at 8/32s, and even across width.
The Michelin MXV4's, with 7k miles, are also at 8/32s and even across width. Looks like the Michelin's aren't going to last as long as the Ecopia's.

That is amazing, I don't know what I am doing wrong, I run them at 45psi. At 5k miles the front were at 6/32 and rear at 8/32. I plan on swapping them every 5k to keep them closer. It will be interesting to see how the snow tires do and if they wear similarly, meaning the car is just that hard on tires.

I also really like Nokian's and have great luck with them. I have them on our wagon, can you believe 10 years now with Hakka Q's and they still stick better than the new Blizzacks.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I checked the tread depth on my OEM Ecopia's, with 17k miles, they are all four at 8/32s, and even across width.
The Michelin MXV4's, with 7k miles, are also at 8/32s and even across width. Looks like the Michelin's aren't going to last as long as the Ecopia's.

That is amazing, I don't know what I am doing wrong, I run them at 45psi. At 5k miles the front were at 6/32 and rear at 8/32. I plan on swapping them every 5k to keep them closer. It will be interesting to see how the snow tires do and if they wear similarly, meaning the car is just that hard on tires.

I also really like Nokian's and have great luck with them. I have them on our wagon, can you believe 10 years now with Hakka Q's and they still stick better than the new Blizzacks.

you probably need to reduce your rotation intervals. recommended (by me) is MINIMUM 5,000 miles. I base that on my Brother's recommendation (he was a tire store manager and they did rotations free so it was not a marketing tactic. FYI; he rotated his tires once a month)

But in your area, you want the good tires on the back until Spring. In Summer, I think the good tire/bad tire issues are not as critical. It does take some planning but I have been doing it this way for decades

 

[BrockWI]

I totally agree, I have always rotated at 10k on all my other vehicles, but I am going to rotate the leaf at 5k intervals, including the snows. Maybe more often if I see wear like I did with the Eco's.

 

[Nubo]

Yes, and neither strategy is the correct one for controlling oversteer, since they both involve shifting dynamic load to the front wheels by slowing the car, which exacerbates the loss of traction by the rear wheels that characterizes an oversteer situation. The proper correction for oversteer is to countersteer (in the direction of the skid) and gently apply throttle to shift weight to the rear of the car to increase grip at that end. This is counterintuitive for most drivers unless they have been trained in vehicle dynamics and practiced car control at the limits of traction extensively, and this does not happen in our routine driver training and licensing process. When the average person is confronted with the loss of control of a vehicle in a turn, their natural reaction is to slow the car (lift off the gas and apply the brakes). The resulting shift of weight to the front wheels is helpful in controlling understeer, but the exact opposite of what is needed to control oversteer. Thus, the recommendation to keep the best tires on the rear, and the reason that every car manufacturer tunes their suspensions to understeer at the limit of grip--it is the safest choice for the average, unskilled driver and reduces their liability.

TT

I agree with all of that. But I still conclude that the best place for the new tires is the rear. I do have a good amount of experience at traction limits. Am I better than the average driver? I don't know. I do know that in many situations control is an illusion. And also 90% of drivers think they're better than average.

 

[JPWhite]

This is counterintuitive for most drivers unless they have been trained in vehicle dynamics and practiced car control at the limits of traction extensively, and this does not happen in our routine driver training and licensing process.

Agreed that controlling a skid doesn't come naturally.

Here's some good examples of steering into a skid.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9L0lxqNrz8[/youtube]

The turn at 1:30 is a great example.

 

[ttweed]

I do know that in many situations control is an illusion.

Yes, if you are truly in a zero-grip situation and the car is sliding, like when hydroplaning or on ice (without chains or studded snow tires), it matters little which end of the car has better tires, and any control inputs will have little effect--you are just going to be a passenger at that point and go where the car's momentum and inertia takes it, until some semblance of traction is restored. If the loss of control results in a spin, it is unlikely that recovery is possible anyway, and you should just attempt to slow the car by standing on the brakes and scrubbing off speed as quickly as you can.

TT

 

[Moof]

I do know that in many situations control is an illusion.

Yes, if you are truly in a zero-grip situation and the car is sliding, like when hydroplaning or on ice (without chains or studded snow tires), it matters little which end of the car has better tires, and any control inputs will have little effect--you are just going to be a passenger at that point and go where the car's momentum and inertia takes it, until some semblance of traction is restored. If the loss of control results in a spin, it is unlikely that recovery is possible anyway, and you should just attempt to slow the car by standing on the brakes and scrubbing off speed as quickly as you can.

TT

No. No. No. Just No.

Having driven on snow and ice a lot while living in Alaska for a decade, I can tell you that such a strategy will get you stuck in a snow bank way more often than need be.

The basic strategy is to let off ALL pedals as soon as you feel things break loose, and keep the front wheels pointed where you want to go regardless of what orientation the car is in, as soon as you have some traction they will start rolling and give you back a little control. If you are a full sideways slide you might regain control if the wheels are roughly pointed right, but if you slam on the brakes you are pretty well guaranteed to NEVER regain any control and it will make almost no difference in how much you slow down. Keeping off the brakes with the wheels pointed in the right direction (or as close as you can) will give you back control as soon as is possible.

With ABS, applying light steady brakes once you have some control and are rolling in the right direction is fine. Without ABS you need to feather the brakes and let off them as soon as you feel things breaking loose again.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Well they may suck, but they got me to the end of the lease with 5/32nds remaining after 35k miles!

 

[ttweed]

If the loss of control results in a spin, it is unlikely that recovery is possible anyway, and you should just attempt to slow the car by standing on the brakes and scrubbing off speed as quickly as you can.

TT

No. No. No. Just No.
...if you slam on the brakes you are pretty well guaranteed to NEVER regain any control...

I think you missed the part of my post where I said if you are "in a spin" (which means you are beyond "sideways" and have already lost control) then apply the brakes.

TT

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

Many of you don't like the Ecopia tires. In my instance as I have mentioned before, they worked well. I don't really care for the Michelins that came with my 2014. If I had thought about it at the time, I would have asked Eastside Nissan to switch them for the Ecopia. As it is, if these last as long as the Ecopia, it will be the best part of 100K miles before I go tire shopping.

 

[TomT]

Yep, the old racer's creed: "In a spin, both pedals in" (back when they had a clutch)!

I think you missed the part of my post where I said if you are "in a spin" (which means you are beyond "sideways" and have already lost control) then apply the brakes.

 

[Moof]

If the loss of control results in a spin, it is unlikely that recovery is possible anyway, and you should just attempt to slow the car by standing on the brakes and scrubbing off speed as quickly as you can.

TT

No. No. No. Just No.
...if you slam on the brakes you are pretty well guaranteed to NEVER regain any control...

I think you missed the part of my post where I said if you are "in a spin" (which means you are beyond "sideways" and have already lost control) then apply the brakes.

TT

In a spin, take your feet off the pedals, and do your best to keep the front wheels pointed down the street (yes, that means lots of whipping the steering wheel back and forth as you come parallel to the road. Odds are you will recover quickly. In a full spin your back wheels are sliding sideways to the road surface, and slamming on the brakes makes almost no difference, they are already broken loose. Your front wheels will also be sideways and sliding, but you if you are keeping them pointed roughly down the street they will "catch" pretty quickly and you will come out of the spin under some control. Standing on the brakes gives you little hope of ever regaining control, and may only slow you down a smidge more than keeping you feet off the pedal.

 

[sredlin]

Many of you don't like the Ecopia tires. In my instance as I have mentioned before, they worked well. I don't really care for the Michelins that came with my 2014. If I had thought about it at the time, I would have asked Eastside Nissan to switch them for the Ecopia. As it is, if these last as long as the Ecopia, it will be the best part of 100K miles before I go tire shopping.

So which Michelin tires are on the 2014 Leaf? And are they supposed to last longer than the Ecopia tires? I count myself as one of the many that do not like the Ecopia tires, because they seem to wear out too quickly, 30K miles and they are bald on the edges and need to be replaced.

 

[garsh]

Keep in mind, the OEM Ecopia tires are most likely different than the ones you buy elsewhere. I wouldn't necessarily dismiss them based on the performance of the original versions.

 

[JPWhite]

they seem to wear out too quickly, 30K miles and they are bald on the edges and need to be replaced.

My first set wore on the edges too. Edge wear is indicative of underinflation. I kept the first set at the recommended 36psi but still the tires wore at the edges.

With my second set I am running them at 40 psi. The wear is much more even.

Everytime I take the car to a a dealer or tire shop it comes out with tire pressure set to 32. Most cars are 32 all round and the mechanics don't bother to read the tire information on the drivers door sill. Before I realized this was happening I could have run hundreds of miles with 32 psi, probably another reason my first set wore out at the edges until I twigged what was happening..

 

[sredlin]

they seem to wear out too quickly, 30K miles and they are bald on the edges and need to be replaced.

My first set wore on the edges too. Edge wear is indicative of underinflation. I kept the first set at the recommended 36psi but still the tires wore at the edges.

With my second set I am running them at 40 psi. The wear is much more even.

Everytime I take the car to a a dealer or tire shop it comes out with tire pressure set to 32. Most cars are 32 all round and the mechanics don't bother to read the tire information on the drivers door sill. Before I realized this was happening I could have run hundreds of miles with 32 psi, probably another reason my first set wore out at the edges until I twigged what was happening..

I've gotten in the habit of running at least 40psi in all 3 of the cars in the family because the tires are rated for 44psi on the Goodyear Assurance tires on our 2 other cars. And I know that wear on the tire edges is often due to low air pressure, but I've checked air pressure at least once a month, and occasionally found it in the mid 30psi range which I would think would be okay, since Nissan says to run them right around that range?

I just don't know if the experiences of what seems like relatively few people who have been happy with Ecopia tires is enough to convince me to replace my OEM tires with another set of them? I've seen a few posts about people switching to Michelin Primacy MXV4 tires and am curious about range and wear results with those tires? And I'm also curious if there are other brands that people are happier with, because I just don't think I want to buy Ecopia tires after seeing how fast the originals wore out on my car. They may not be bad tires on other cars for other people, but for me they were not great, so any recommendations for something different and hopefully better would be greatly appreciated.

 

[pchilds]

I checked the tread depth on my OEM Ecopia's, with 17k miles, they are all four at 8/32s, and even across width.
The Michelin MXV4's, with 7k miles, are also at 8/32s and even across width. Looks like the Michelin's aren't going to last as long as the Ecopia's.

 

[Nubo]

they seem to wear out too quickly, 30K miles and they are bald on the edges and need to be replaced.

My first set wore on the edges too. Edge wear is indicative of underinflation. I kept the first set at the recommended 36psi but still the tires wore at the edges.

With my second set I am running them at 40 psi. The wear is much more even.

Everytime I take the car to a a dealer or tire shop it comes out with tire pressure set to 32. Most cars are 32 all round and the mechanics don't bother to read the tire information on the drivers door sill. …

After I got my car back from one of the yearly battery checks, I noted the service writer had taken up most of the "notes" section with a GIGANTIC:

checked tire pressure - 44psi
TIRES SHOULD BE 36psi ! ! !

Yes, 3 exclamation points. Seemed to be a very strongly held belief for him. I took the car home and pumped back up to 44psi. :lol:

Before the next check I bled the tires down to 36psi. I figured they'd do it anyway so I might as well not give them any excuse to accuse me of abuse.

I had noted some feathering on the shoulders very early on when I first rotated my tires at about 4000 miles. I ran 44psi after that and tires had even treadwear and passed inspection when I turned in the lease at 25,500 miles.

 

[sredlin]

The way I see it, if the tire is rated for 44psi cold, then why not run it like that, especially if it is fairly well known that it will roll easier and be more efficient on a car where efficiency is important?