Don't plug in or you'll get arrested!

[brucedp]

I had posted this news item to the evdl.org last night
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EV-owner-charged-w-stealing-0-05-worth-of-juice-video-td4666537.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
so as to keep it historically documented on the evdl.org nabble archive.
I checked the URL of the newswire on this thread and it has been updated, so check back regularly for their updates on this on-going story.

Also, I updated last night's post (above URL) with several of the copy-cat newswires. Looks like, for better or worse, the plugin community is in the spot-light again (as if the fires weren't enough).
These copy-cat newswires seem to be equally divided from "Those darn electrical-things!" to "A Police injustice over 5 cents!".

On that thread, I also posted my similar personal experience: It only cost me $500 to get my EV back.

Bottom line: today there are plenty of public EVSE, use them, or "always get permission!" before plugging in.
{brucedp.150m.com}

 

[donald]

Application of the law should always be proportionate. 'Proportionality' is a founding tenet of western legal principles, else, for example, the Police could argue that it is right to shoot a drunk driver on sight as he may drive off and injure someone.

So, err... just as a matter of balance; if you crank up an ICE engine on school property, are you stealing their oxygen to create combustion power, or if your vehicle has a solar charger fitted then you're stealing their sunshine?

 

[pkulak]

Bottom line is if you take power without asking you are stealing and you can expect the possibility of some consequences that may or may not seem reasonable. In the early days of this forum there were plenty of people here that seem to think that taking power from a public space is not stealing, I guess anything can be justified in ones head. Asking is always an option and more and more EV drivers will certainly get into situations where they make EV drivers in general look like entitled idiots. We already see this at dealerships. There are also possible ramifications of doing this, what if someone had a refrigerator at a business that happened to be on the same line as an outside outlet and the EV driver tripped this and all the food went bad because of lack of power? There are many possibilities and usually many options for people to ask.

Very good point. This guy probably just got his Leaf and was excited and playing around. Who the hell ever needs 120 away from home? Unless you're in an emergency, but then maybe you take the risk or just ask, 'cus you're going to need to be there a while!

 

[JimSouCal]

I still am of the guess that the "suspect" could have handled the matter with more grace and he'd been simply warned. Listen to his interview and a read between the lines.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...There are also possible ramifications of doing this, what if someone had a refrigerator at a business that happened to be on the same line as an outside outlet and the EV driver tripped this and all the food went bad because of lack of power? There are many possibilities and usually many options for people to ask.

Last week I was charging at a 240V plug in the town park in my area (so I could get home). I got a chance to speak with the town administrator, who gave me blanket permission two years ago to charge there. She mentioned that someone — nobody was clear who — had plugged into a 120 Volt outlet on a street light. Turns out that light was the one that is metered by the power co-op — the reading is then multiplied by the number of street lights in the town to get the monthly bill for the town. Needless to say, they saw a spike in street light billing for that month. That outlet is now locked so that it can't happen again.

So, one never quite knows what the ramifications of opportunity charging without permission are. In my case I've offered to pay for the electricity but the town says it would cost more to handle the payments than the tiny amount of electricity is worth. (Which was true: I used 44¢ of electricity to give me the 35 Gids I needed to make it home.)

 

[DarkStar]

Rumors are that he was previously told that he did not have permission to plug into those outlets. Sounds like the properly owner should have instead issued an exclusion given the amount of the theft. Most grocery stores and big-box stores do something similar for thefts under $5-10...

 

[kubel]

If this were private property not open to the general public, then this is theft. But this is tricky since he's on public property, a facility that I presume is open to the general public. If there was a drinking fountain on school grounds, and someone from the general public decided to get a drink, would he be charged with theft for stealing 5 cents worth of water? If he used the bathroom and used toilet paper or paper towels, would he be charged with theft or destruction of property? If someone plugs in a cell phone or a laptop to an outlet in a library, will they be charged with theft? If I were in a public park using an outlet on a covered picnic area to keep a crock pot of food warm at a potluck, would that be theft?

If it's public property and you don't want someone using it, put up a sign, or lock it down. Otherwise it's assumed it's available for modest and considerate use by the public.

I've used outlets in public parks before for an opportunity charge. They are government owned, the facility was open to the general public, and no signs say "don't use this outlet"- so I say go for it.

Of course, there's probably more to this story.

 

[Stoaty]

If this were private property not open to the general public, then this is theft. But this is tricky since he's on public property, a facility that I presume is open to the general public. If there was a drinking fountain on school grounds, and someone from the general public decided to get a drink, would he be charged with theft for stealing 5 cents worth of water? If he used the bathroom and used toilet paper or paper towels, would he be charged with theft or destruction of property? If someone plugs in a cell phone or a laptop to an outlet in a library, will they be charged with theft?...

A very reasonable and well reasoned response. If only the policeman in question were able to use a bit of judgment.

 

[mczajka]

Wednesday evening, Chamblee City Manager and Police Chief Marc Johnson issued the following statement:

We received a 911 call advising that someone was plugged into the power outlet behind the middle school. The responding officer located the vehicle in the rear of the building at the kitchen loading dock up against the wall with a cord run to an outlet. The officer spent some time trying to determine whose vehicle it was. It was unlocked and he eventually began looking through the interior after verifying it did not belong to the school system.

The officer, his marked patrol vehicle and the electric vehicle were all in clear view of the tennis courts. Eventually, a man on the courts told the officer that the man playing tennis with him owned the vehicle. The officer went to the courts and interviewed the vehicle owner. The officer's initial incident report gives a good indication of how difficult and argumentative the individual was to deal with. He made no attempt to apologize or simply say oops and he wouldn't do it again. Instead he continued being argumentative, acknowledged he did not have permission and then accused the officer of having damaged his car door. The officer told him that was not true and that the vehicle and existing damage was already on his vehicles video camera from when he drove up.

Given the uncooperative attitude and accusations of damage to his vehicle, the officer chose to document the incident on an incident report. The report was listed as misdemeanor theft by taking. The officer had no way of knowing how much power had been consumed, how much it cost nor how long it had been charging.

The report made its way to Sgt Ford's desk for a follow up investigation. He contacted the middle school and inquired of several administrative personnel whether the individual had permission to use power. He was advised no. Sgt. Ford showed a photo to the school resource officer who recognized Mr. Kamooneh. Sgt Ford was further advised that Mr. Kamooneh had previously been advised he was not allowed on the school tennis courts without permission from the school . This was apparently due to his interfering with the use of the tennis courts previously during school hours.

Based upon the totality of these circumstances and without any expert advice on the amount of electricity that may have been used, Sgt Ford signed a theft warrant. The warrant was turned over to the DeKalb Sheriffs Dept for service because the individual lived in Decatur, not Chamblee. This is why he was arrested at a later time.

I am sure that Sgt. Ford was feeling defensive when he said a theft is a theft and he would do it again. Ultimately, Sgt. Ford did make the decision to pursue the theft charges, but the decision was based on Mr. Kamooneh having been advised that he was not allowed on the property without permission. Had he complied with that notice none of this would have occurred. Mr. Kamooneh's son is not a student at the middle school and he was not the one playing tennis. Mr. Kamooneh was taking lessons himself.

 

[mczajka]

I wonder if this guy is on this forum?

 

[kubel]

We received a 911 call

:lol: For the love of God, SOMEONE IS PLUGGED IN!!! CALL 911!!!

That version of events only reinforces in my mind that the cop is a total douchebag. I would be pissed off too if I found some cop nosing around in my vehicle.

 

[Stoaty]

The officer's initial incident report gives a good indication of how difficult and argumentative the individual was to deal with. He made no attempt to apologize or simply say oops and he wouldn't do it again. Instead he continued being argumentative, acknowledged he did not have permission and then accused the officer of having damaged his car door.

It appears we have been correct in questioning the judgment and attitude of the participants, but a bit hasty in assuming which one was at fault. It sounds like the police were more than reasonable and the guy "dug his own grave" so to speak.

 

[philipscoggins]

Yeah, agree the driver was a jerk.

If you poke at the authorities long enough they will eventually get tired of it.

 

[Rat]

I agree with stoaty. The guy was a jerk who thought the school belonged to him and interfered with use of its facilities (the tennis court) by the students. He had no legitimate connection with the school. He'd been asked to stay away and disregarded the request. This really wasn't about the electricity ($.04, not $.05 according to the utility district), it was about his sense of entitlement. He's the kind of Leaf owner who gives us all a bad name. How do you think the officer would have responded if he saw someone siphoning out gasoline from a school district vehicle into his own gas tank? Would you argue that it was only cents worth of gas and therefore ridiculous to cite them? Do you think a taxpayer wouldn't call the police for that if they saw it? (When I worked for a transit district we actually had an employee who did that regularly - only it turned out to be hundreds of dollars a month. Yes, the van was public property in the sense of it belonged to a taxpayer-supported entity, but that doesn't mean its gas is your gas). I side with the officer on this one.

 

[ericsf]

I agree with stoaty. The guy was a jerk who thought the school belonged to him and interfered with use of its facilities (the tennis court) by the students. He had no legitimate connection with the school. He'd been asked to stay away and disregarded the request. This really wasn't about the electricity ($.04, not $.05 according to the utility district), it was about his sense of entitlement. He's the kind of Leaf owner who gives us all a bad name. How do you think the officer would have responded if he saw someone siphoning out gasoline from a school district vehicle into his own gas tank? Would you argue that it was only cents worth of gas and therefore ridiculous to cite them? Do you think a taxpayer wouldn't call the police for that if they saw it? (When I worked for a transit district we actually had an employee who did that regularly - only it turned out to be hundreds of dollars a month. Yes, the van was public property in the sense of it belonged to a taxpayer-supported entity, but that doesn't mean its gas is your gas). I side with the officer on this one.

+1

This guy is a jerk who decided to be combative against a police officer when he was 100% in the wrong. He chose to escalate and he got was he deserved. Too bad it was about charging his LEAF.

 

[bwatl]

I'm not defending the guy here, but I have to say, when it comes to theft, the Dekalb County school system has stolen thousands from me in the form of taxes. I paid school taxes when I didn't have a child, and now that I have one I'm still paying them, even though I have my child in a private school because the fine Dekalb County school in my district is a h*ll hole. They've stolen untold amounts of money from every property owner in Dekalb County for school taxes, and I'd submit the victims get very little, if any, benefit.

 

[UBUYGAS]

Thanks Ray because this is not confusing!

¢ / (¢/kWh) = ¢ x (kWh/¢) = ¢kWh/¢ = kWh
(kWh) / (kW) = h[ours]

LOL :lol:



If he only stole 5 cents of electricity then how long was he connected? I charge at around 75 cents an hour. So he was plugged In for 7 mins?[/quote]At 120v the LEAF can only pull 1.44 kW. Are you saying you pay 52¢/kWh?[/quote]I pay 10.5¢/kWh[/quote]5¢ / (10.5¢/kWh) = 0.48 kWh
(0.48 kHw) / (1.44 kW) = 0.33 hours
If the school was paying 10.5¢/kWh then he was connected for 20 minutes.

My point was that you wouldn't be paying anywhere close to 75¢/hour if you were charging at 120v.

By the way, for anyone who ever gets confused with calculations like this, try leaving off the numbers at first and just "calculating" with the units.
¢ / (¢/kWh) = ¢ x (kWh/¢) = ¢kWh/¢ = kWh
(kWh) / (kW) = h[ours]

Ray

 

[kubel]

This guy is a jerk who decided to be combative against a police officer when he was 100% in the wrong. He chose to escalate and he got was he deserved. Too bad it was about charging his LEAF.

He wasn't combative (that implies violence). He was adamant that he wasn't committing a crime (which consensus here seems to be that publicly funded and open-to-public facilities are free to be used by the public so long as the use is reasonable). Whether or not he was a jerk to the police officer shouldn't determine whether he was guilty of theft or not. Is charging in an open-to-the-public, taxpayer-funded facility considered "theft", or isn't it? I think that should be the question here. If yes, is using a drinking fountain or restroom in an open-to-the-public, taxpayer-funded facility considered "theft"? If not, how is using 5 cents worth of water any different than using 5 cents worth of electricity?

It sounds like the scope of this drama is not just about electricity, but also use of the school tennis courts in general. From the police release, it seems that if the school allowed him to use the facilities, they wouldn't have pressed charges for theft. But they didn't get him for trespassing, which is interesting.

Here's my speculation on the sequence of events leading up to this:

LEAF guy decides one day to use school tennis courts. Schools says no. LEAF guy says, screw you, I'm a taxpayer- this place is open to the public, I'm going to play tennis- charge me with trespassing if you want. School realizes that because the tennis courts are publicly funded and open to the public, he does have the right to use them, so there's nothing they can do. Fast forward a few days. School staff who has had previous dealings with LEAF guy sees he's plugged in one day. School staff calls 911. Police show up, start nosing through his car (illegally, by the way), confront LEAF guy. LEAF guy is adamant he's got the right to use the tennis courts and related facilities (including electricity). LEAF guy discovers cop was in his car, gets pissed off, gives attitude. Cops decides to break the guys balls and arrest him.

Again, just speculation.

It seems to boil down to this:

LEAF guy feels he has a right to use a facility that is open to the public and taxpayer funded.
The school feels he does not.

I think he has the right to use the facilities, both to play tennis and to charge his car- as long as long as the facilities are tax payer funded and open to the public, which I would think a school tennis court is. I don't think charging a car is any more unreasonable than charging a laptop or cell phone in a library.

 

[Stoaty]

It seems to boil down to this:

LEAF guy feels he has a right to use a facility that is open to the public and taxpayer funded.
The school feels he does not.

His problem is that the way he chose to go about demanding what he felt were his rights during this encounter was extremely counterproductive (for him). If he had quietly gone away and checked into exerting his rights later on--with an attorney if necessary--he might have made more progress (or maybe not, I don't know the legal niceties here). Needlessly antagonizing people who have the power to arrest you is just plain stupid.

 

[smkettner]

Never mind the electricity. This guy appears to be a trouble maker. Probably been run off before due to some altercation and the locals are protecting their children and school from his mischief. There are some like him in about every neighborhood and I would do the same and call the police.