Discuss data from the LEAF Battery app, and Comparisons

[edatoakrun]

"surfingslovak"]Ah, here we go. Since the test LEAF was located in Phoenix, it would be interesting to know how it was garaged and operated and if it was purchased there new. Additional details should be made available by the lab to help explain some of the discrepancies in their published data. Anyone care to contact them?...

See my reply at the thread on-topic:


LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265&start=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

"surfingslovak"]Ah, here we go. Since the test LEAF was located in Phoenix, it would be interesting to know how it was garaged and operated and if it was purchased there new. Additional details should be made available by the lab to help explain some of the discrepancies in their published data. Anyone care to contact them?...

See my reply at the thread on-topic:


LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265&start=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, Ed, I will respond when I have time to respond on those threads. That said, you have misunderstood or misinterpreted the point I raised about the energy enconomy gauge. We cannot take energy economy measurements from other sources, assume that the dash gauge would show the same figure, and then deduce the range of the vehicle from that. That's like measuring vehicle speed via GPS, taking time from a stop watch and calculating what the odometer gauge should be showing. You have also not addressed the concern about diverging charger and EVSE efficiencies in the reports from different sources.

I took some time to review the UDDS projections the lab has made for the 2011 and 2012 Volt, and those aprear to be off by about 10% also. Interestingly, the two Volt batteries they measured were nearly perfect. One measured over the rated capacity and the other about 5% below. I don't think that the same argument can be used here, and I do think that the lab results for energy economy are low, which translates to low range predictions.

I also believe that the lab should not wait until test vehicles accumulated 6,000 miles before getting baseline figures. That might have been appropriate for gasoline engines, which require a break-in period. Battery packs can degrade dignificantly over a 12-month period, and they should be measured in factory-new condition. Not surprisingly, the battery discharge test this lab has conducted shows exactly that: about 13% capacity loss on their test LEAF after 6,000 miles. Strangely, you chose to selectively use the energy economy figures from this lab to disprove the very same thing, and to insinuate that battery degradation and range loss both exist just in our imagination.

Your objections to using dash instrumentation are well documented. That said, we don't need that to conduct a range test. All that's needed is a GPS-based speedometer and map data. As has been demonstrated, a new LEAF off a dealer parking lot will travel between 84 to 89 miles at steady 100 km/h (62.5 mph). If you believe the data from the NREL Oak Ridge lab, this implies an energy economy between 3.92 m/kWh to 4.16 m/kWh. Although CarWings and dash instruments were not involved in this, the resulting values would roughly correspond to what several LEAF owners have observed on the dash economy gauge.

If someone is satisfied with the range of their vehicle after two years of use, that's fantastic and more power to them. But I would not go as far as dismissing the observations and calculations of others, which show something else as fairy tales or gauge errors. I think that's a bit extreme, there is quite a bit of data to the contrary as well.

 

[DaveEV]

GBShaun, Drees, wanted to corroborate similar status of battery for me since we have similar history cars:
56.9 Ah, GIDs 200 @ 80% and 22K mi, Jun 2011 delivery in N. Coast San Diego (my sig is a little dated)

Slightly better than my car - maybe you keep your car a bit closer to the coast than I do.

If you really believe that the range of a "new" LEAF at 65 mph is 83 miles, from "100%" to turtle

Tony has done enough range tests on various LEAFs at 100 km/h GPS ground speed (which is 64-65 mph speedometer speed) to pretty easily confirm that a new LEAF driven at 65 mph indicated on the freeway will do 80+ miles from 100% to turtle. BTW - we aren't talking about "LAB" conditions here. We are talking about real-world range. gbshaun says he normally does 60 miles from 100% to LBW at 65 mph. Tony's multiple tests have shown 2013 LEAFs and a fairly new 2012 LEAF to do 68-74 miles from 100% to LBW. It's pretty clear that gbshaun is missing 8-14 miles of range on his LEAF at 65 mph (and FWIW the last mostly 65 mph freeway trip I did got me LBW slightly over 60 miles as well).

 

[TomT]

Or, perhaps, there is subtle elevation change...

Tony's multiple tests have shown 2013 LEAFs and a fairly new 2012 LEAF to do 68-74 miles from 100% to LBW. It's pretty clear that gbshaun is missing 8-14 miles of range on his LEAF at 65 mph (and FWIW the last mostly 65 mph freeway trip I did got me LBW slightly over 60 miles as well).

 

[JasonA]

We are talking about real-world range.Tony's multiple tests have shown 2013 LEAFs and a fairly new 2012 LEAF to do 68-74 miles from 100% to LBW. It's pretty clear that gbshaun is missing 8-14 miles of range on his LEAF at 65 mph (and FWIW the last mostly 65 mph freeway trip I did got me LBW slightly over 60 miles as well).

Yesterday I went down to GregH's house (Irvine) from my place Sylmar (far end).. I zero'd out EVERYTHING.. at home I started with 265 gids and ended at 83 at his house. AC on, mixed frw/65mph driving.

After all the CAN/Brusa playing.. I left last night with 258 GIDS... and 55-65 driving (that damn Disneyland traffic!!) and it's all uphill.. this is what I got!! and no LBW!! Still had 26% left in the pack!

Car is now 13 months old. So doing a 65-70 mile trip on the hwy is no problem with AC on...

 

[garygid]

To get back on track, please try using version 0.26 or later
of the Android Battery App, possibly 0.26h, to see real GIDs,
not the estimated Gids (shows as 'Gids, notice the apostrophe)
that are shown in the now-obsolete version 0.25. Thanks

 

[TonyWilliams]

...

ps As an indication of range, a few weeks ago two of us drove 60 miles round-trip @ 65mph (74F, light A/C use), and the app said I had 3.8KWh remaining (18.4% SOC). I'd just got the LBW.
This is consistent with the LEAF range chart for a 100% capacity battery. I'm quite satisfied with that range.

Assuming that you have about 13 miles of range left at 65 mph from LBW for a total of 73 miles before turtle, that's actually down about 10 miles from new which is right around 15% capacity loss as one might expect having lost 1 bar.

If you really believe that the range of a "new" LEAF at 65 mph is 83 miles, from "100%" to turtle, then you will, of course, also convince yourself that you are suffering significantly reduced battery capacity when your LEAF does not meet that imaginary range.

If you're new to the forum, Ed is a known troll. Yes, of course the LEAF can go that distance when new, and the fact that you went about 15% less is consistent that your car has lost that much battery capacity.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Big hat, no cattle.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The poster claimed that it was round trip, hence no elevation change.

Or, perhaps, there is subtle elevation change...

Tony's multiple tests have shown 2013 LEAFs and a fairly new 2012 LEAF to do 68-74 miles from 100% to LBW. It's pretty clear that gbshaun is missing 8-14 miles of range on his LEAF at 65 mph (and FWIW the last mostly 65 mph freeway trip I did got me LBW slightly over 60 miles as well).

 

[gbshaun]

Thanks for the feedback guys, i really do appreciate it and apologize that I don't have the time to keep up with the pace of this group's postings.
I'll keep an eye on the post-software-update figures as far as returning to what they were.
Maybe i've not noticed a 15% loss because it hasn't affected me materially. My usual r/t is just 56 miles and not all at freeway speeds.

We really enjoy driving the car, and between L1 recharging options at my 28mile turn-around point, and my wife's commute being just 32 miles, it will remain a very useful vehicle for us for many years to come.

Shaun

 

[Berlino]

Two days ago, I drove about 1 km off the dealer's lot before stopping to setup the battery app and take these screenshots.

Note that my new car had 220 km on it and probably was fully charged at the dealer for at least over the weekend. However, their L2 charger is out of the sun in a partially air-conditioned garage. Comparing the battery temp to ambient, I think the vehicle had spent the last couple of days inside (the dealer is actually closed on weekends.)

The 3rd battery sensor report continues to be MIA. I am a bit concerned about kWh being low for a new car. I ran it down to about 25%, then attempted a full charge yesterday and it wouldn't budge beyond 97.3% SOC, 21.4 kWh, and 268 GIDs. Dash showed 98%.

 

[JeremyW]

There is no 3rd sensor in the '13 pack. It's mentioned in the service manual.

 

[LEAFfan]

There is no 3rd sensor in the '13 pack. It's mentioned in the service manual.

That's correct. They're numbered 1, 4, 2 from back to front on the right side (passenger side in USA).

 

[GregH]

attempted a full charge yesterday and it wouldn't budge beyond 97.3% SOC, 21.4 kWh, and 268 GIDs. Dash showed 98%.

Interesting.. the 2013 rental I had would charge up to 97.2999% and that was it. I wonder if the Jim's app is rounding up?

 

[Berlino]

My wife and I each have a Leaf, manufactured May 2013, both w about 1k miles, mine has 60.5 AHr and hers 60.2. I'm worried.

That is disappointing. Have those numbers been more or less constant?

My Leaf was manufactured two months after yours. It originally was registering 61.x, after two days it went to 62.x, and now after a five days and 500 miles it is at 63.5.

 

[jguenst]

I started with 62 and now at 59.5 and have 1003 miles on my 2013 leaf bought in June. My first leaf did go farther. Did not get the battery app until I notice my new leaf did not go as far as the 2011 leaf. I have charge the new leaf to 100% a few times to see if BMS could improve the Ahr but it has not :|

My wife and I each have a Leaf, manufactured May 2013, both w about 1k miles, mine has 60.5 AHr and hers 60.2. I'm worried.

That is disappointing. Have those numbers been more or less constant?

My Leaf was manufactured two months after yours. It originally was registering 61.x, after two days it went to 62.x, and now after a five days and 500 miles it is at 63.5.

 

[stjohnh]

[/quote]

That is disappointing. Have those numbers been more or less constant?

My Leaf was manufactured two months after yours. It originally was registering 61.x, after two days it went to 62.x, and now after a five days and 500 miles it is at 63.5.[/quote]

Yes, fairly constant, but have only had the leaf battery app a few weeks and while AHr capacity reads low, the range is actually OK. Not clear if Nissan changed programming of data feeds or what.

 

[Staque]

What's the difference between the calculation of the KWh displayed and the Wh "trip meter"? (the one with the reset button) Is the Wh counter using a coulomb counter or something to get such precise measurement (down to the single watt-hour)?

I've noticed on my 2013 SV I start with 22.7 KWh (yes, 284 GIDs), and reset my Wh counter so it reads zero. After I drive for a while, it shows 22.0KWh and 700Wh (so far so good), then 20.8 and 1800 (uh-oh, 100Wh missing), eventually to 16.3KWh and 6000Wh, indicating a max capacity of 22.3KWh instead of 22.7KWh. I have to do more measurement to lower SOCs, but if I extrapolate what I have so far, I will have a discrepancy of 1.4KWh between the two meters, which makes me wonder if I'll be able to go those last 5 miles or not.

I've been using the watt-hour "trip meter" to gauge how much energy it takes to get to different places under different conditions, but if I can't compare those values to the KWh remaining, it's slightly less useful than I imagined it being. I can deal with a 6% error, but I'm wondering if there's any reason for that error existing, understanding that all calculations of a battery's capacity and SOC is a sophisticated form of guessing.

 

[Staque]

Incidentally, the Leaf (2013 SV) doesn't seem to connect while I'm charging. (It connects to the ELM but says "waiting for leaf") If I press a key fob button, or door lock, I get data for a few seconds, and it stops again. Has anyone else seen this?

So now, when I'm in my house (the bluetooth reaches my living room, dining room, and kitchen) and I want to know my charging status, I run the battery app, and press the charging door unlock button on my fob (which apparently "wakes up" something in the car). The app gets 2 or 3 updates and loses connection again. But it's faster than carwings.

 

[Berlino]

Incidentally, the Leaf (2013 SV) doesn't seem to connect while I'm charging. (It connects to the ELM but says "waiting for leaf") If I press a key fob button, or door lock, I get data for a few seconds, and it stops again. Has anyone else seen this?

When the LEAF is off I cannot connect, but when charging in Accessory mode there is no problem running the app.

 

[Staque]

Incidentally, the Leaf (2013 SV) doesn't seem to connect while I'm charging. (It connects to the ELM but says "waiting for leaf") If I press a key fob button, or door lock, I get data for a few seconds, and it stops again. Has anyone else seen this?

When the LEAF is off I cannot connect, but when charging in Accessory mode there is no problem running the app.

Yes, same here. On the wiki it says I can get data any time there are blue lights, so I wanted to know if it's just me.