DC Fast Charging $$$$ Fee Poll

[TonyWilliams]

I would pay the equivalent of gas charges plus some small additonal fee, as I would be using the QC for long trips and emegencies anyway which would be around 10 times a year.

So, what are those numbers? I posted numerous payment schedules in the first post. Choice "B1" is the equivalent to gas choice.

How much is that additional small fee?

 

[hill]

I attended the dedication for the QC at Stanford Shopping Center in Palo Alto yesterday (5/15). The number mentioned is the QC is used about 3-4 times/day. This is the only point-of-reference I have heard for commercial QC use, but the numbers could be much different for the VW QC in Belmont and Mitsubishi QC in Cypress, but they offer free charge so far.

I think 100-150 charges per month would be a good number to work with for a really good location. My understanding is that Palo Alto is unique because it has its own utility that does not charge a demand fee. This is NOT the norm in California.

So, 125 uses per month times the minimum $7 fee equals $875 in gross revenue. I'll guess that folks are "getting their money's worth" and sucking up 20kWh per charge (18kWh into the battery at 90%), which means $2 in electricity per charge at 10 cents per kWh, $250 for the month total.

That leaves $625 to pay for insurance, maintenance, depreciation, and payment to the host for their "free" parking spot. Oh, almost forgot that little cost to pay for the DC charger and installation, permits, and fees. Good thing they don't have a $1500 demand fee !!!

And, of course, employees, shareholders, advertisers, etc don't need to be paid.

This is why our electricity co-op in the Flathead Valley MT works so nice. All the users pay just enough to cover costs, labor rates, maintenance, and the occasional equipment upgrades. We're just not organized to do it between the Leafers.

I guess the next logical step in my study is to take my DC charger and a generator, and park it in Oceanside, and see how many actually do come through to pay $ xx for a charge.

That is the spot for the highest likely demand that I can foresee in all of SoCal, between to large metropolitan areas. Vacaville would be another good spot to study. Maybe Oxnard (between LA basin and Santa Barbara), and San Bernadino for LA basin to Palm Springs.

Pick a date ... gimmy a few days notice, and I'd be glad to participate. Get enough of us to do that, and it might actually generate some media attention.

 

[lspooz]

Answer: F

Greensboro NC [7.8cents/ kWh]

 

[TonyWilliams]

My mother just retired from the electric co-op in her "neighborhood" in Montana. My property up there is hooked to the former Montana Power, now Northwest Energy.

The co-op will run free fiber optic cable to my place (in exchange for allowing them to cross my property with their cables).

I probably won't have a DC charger in my possession until mid summer. If I get it before then, I'm going to take it will me on my Mexico to Canada drive in June.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Answer: F

Greensboro NC [7.8cents/ kWh]

That's some cheap power. Thanks for your response.

 

[smkettner]

Laugh all you want. Why is Walgreens putting in L3? Just for the green kicker or to actually attact customers? Or to get some customers that will shop a bit more, not just run in for a $2 item and leave.

What if you had a lower cost solution to provide the same service to their customers?
What if you partnered with a solar installer to present a bigger package?

 

[EricH]

Tony - have you considered the propane-sales model? It strikes me that the way I refill my propane canister (visit a semi-related business like U-Haul or a 76 station, ask the clerk to step out and operate a specialized/hazardous device to refill my tank, and pay them $15-$20 for the privelege) has parallels to a QC model:

1. Customer usage is sporadic
2. Expensive/specialized equipment (large high-pressure tank, pump, valves, meter) required
3. Operations are simple enough to be part-time task for minimum-wage clerk
4. Labor costs are low (see "part-time task", above)
5. Markup on sale of commodity (propane) is high enough to cover the equipment, maintenance, insurance, and bulk-purchased commodity
6. Host business may get ancillary sales (I get gas "while" at the 76, or pick up some boxes or a trailer while at U-Haul?) - certainly I could use a snack while at a QC station.

I honestly don't see how DC infrastructure would be much different, except the attendant could be optional.

The "mental block" I'm reading here is that people object to paying a location premium -- why would I pay 50+ cents for a kWh that costs me 12 cents at home, or maybe zero at work or LAX? But with a limited-range vehicle, location has a value -- how many of us would vote for Mitsubishi to move their QC from Cypress to another spot? We've already covered "trip" math in this thread - how 'expensive' QC combined with 'cheap' home charging can make a trip cheaper than using an ICE vehicle. I've argued before that Nissan should sponsor QC along these very corridors, simply to encourage tentative Leaf shoppers to purchase (single-car households, people with regular San Diego or Santa Barbara driving routines). A car that has a usable range of SD-SB-Palm Springs sounds much more marketable to me.

Tony's suggestions for high-traffic, single-charge range boosts (Oceanside, Oxnard, San Bernardino) have always seemed logical to me, as well as LAX -- for Leaf owners to do longer-range pickups/dropoffs, as well as mitigate the risk that they are unable to find a plug before their own flight leaves.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Guys, we're venturing into the area of "solving the problem", when if you recall at the beginning, the DC chargers were as plentiful as gas stations. Believe it or not, I have spent a few minutes of my life researching plenty of other options.

In general, anything that adds to the up front capital is only a detriment to a super low revenue model. Batteries are probably the most expensive solution, but perhaps solar could beat it out!!! The propane models are interesting with a Capstone, but the cost there is ENORMOUS.

None of which matters, again, if the end user will only use it infrequently, or in emergencies, or just drive the Prius.

There's a very sound business reason why NRG / eVgo only sells memberships.

 

[evnow]

The solution is, as always, simple but difficult.

CA utility commission (?) needs to make an exception on demand charges for QCs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Laugh all you want. Why is Walgreens putting in L3? Just for the green kicker or to actually attact customers? Or to get some customers that will shop a bit more, not just run in for a $2 item and leave.

What if you had a lower cost solution to provide the same service to their customers?

It kinda sounds like the impromptu I get from somebody selling their religion to me... ya, what if. No kidding.

Cracker Barrel and Walgreens seem to know something we don't know, right? Good luck to them (of course, 99.99999999999% of us don't own a retail chain, and those of us that do are not gambling big bucks on DC charging. The proof is in the result.

Certainly, I'd love for Crackle Barrel and Walgreens to be the norm. I'm about a block from our local Walgreens with an L2. Works great, and gives me an excuse to buy a big ice tea. I'm not sure how much I would pay to use that service, however.

As for Walgreen DC charging, I don't believe we have one in California (actually, I know we don't). I would absolutely be happy to pay for the service if it were here.

Back to your original point of retailers paying to get a DC charger, all I can say is "good luck".

 

[Jim66]

G,H,I,or J - but I rarely make long drives where I would use this. Having enough charging stations would encourage more driving, though.

Carlsbad, CA

 

[GRA]

Laugh all you want. Why is Walgreens putting in L3? Just for the green kicker or to actually attact customers? Or to get some customers that will shop a bit more, not just run in for a $2 item and leave.

What if you had a lower cost solution to provide the same service to their customers?

It kinda sounds like the impromptu I get from somebody selling their religion to me... ya, what if. No kidding.

Cracker Barrel and Walgreens seem to know something we don't know, right? Good luck to them (of course, 99.99999999999% of us don't own a retail chain, and those of us that do are not gambling big bucks on DC charging. The proof is in the result.

Certainly, I'd love for Crackle Barrel and Walgreens to be the norm. I'm about a block from our local Walgreens with an L2. Works great, and gives me an excuse to buy a big ice tea. I'm not sure how much I would pay to use that service, however.

As for Walgreen DC charging, I don't believe we have one in California (actually, I know we don't). I would absolutely be happy to pay for the service if it were here.

Back to your original point of retailers paying to get a DC charger, all I can say is "good luck".

I'll add that one of the local Walgreen's just removed their L2 within the last month, I'm guessing due to lack of use.

Tony, on another point, if you were to try this at a single location wouldn't San Clemente be a better location than Oceanside for L.A. - S.D. drivers? It's almost exactly halfway and is within range from either end, although maybe with some reduced speeds if you're working with an 80% charge. Oceanside is certainly a useful location too, but that would seem to be second choice.

 

[smkettner]

Unless Walgreen's install was part of the government program they certainly paid somebody to install and will pay somebody to maintain the units.
Up front fee or a lease but payment was surely made.

Plenty of companies do not front the cash on this stuff and prefer to lease and farm out the maintenance. They don't want the risk. They would prefer to cancel if it does not work out. Business does not want to be stuck with obsolete equipment either.

If you can be the low cost supplier by managing demand costs or install costs that becomes your business model.
Starts to make sense if you don't pay for the electric, just collect the fee to clean and maintain.

 

[Herm]

Wlagreens is working with NRG Energy, 350Green and Car Charging Group.. I'm sure every state has different incentives and perhaps there are federal incentives also. How many Fast DC chargers does Walgreens have by now?

 

[walterbays]

CA utility commission (?) needs to make an exception on demand charges for QCs.

I think they should exempt QC from demand charges for 3 years while they study the effect on the grid. Is it bad because of the added peak load of QC? Or is it good because it enticed several thousand more drivers to switch to EV and they charge 95% of the time at home in the night? But maybe a temporary exemption wouldn't be enough to lure station operators into making long term investments.

Another change might do even better. Split demand charges into a local portion for the cost of local distribution, and a regional portion for the cost of building new power plants and long distance transmission lines. Charge local demand fees on a site by site basis as all demand fees are now charged. Charge regional demand fees on a regional basis, giving incentive for a QC operator to implement region-wide demand management. E.g., when cars started charging in one location it might slightly reduce power delivered to cars in other locations in order to keep the aggregate load in the SDG&E territory below a desired demand threshold. Such a scheme would do nothing for a single site operator, but might make demand fees a non-issue for large operators. I suspect that neighborhood transformers and even underground distribution lines cost a lot less than new power plants and new transmission lines.

if you were to try this at a single location wouldn't San Clemente be a better location than Oceanside for L.A. - S.D. drivers? It's almost exactly halfway...

It would be better for us San Diegans driving north, but I think Oceanside would be better for Angelinos and OC folks driving south - and I think more cars head south on a weekend than north.

 

[hill]

The solution is, as always, simple but difficult.

CA utility commission (?) needs to make an exception on demand charges for QCs.

They know ... I talked to the SoCal Edison peep's at the EV show up at the L.A. convention center a week or 2 ago. SCE said they've been told this several times before. They've had proposals put before them (and suggestions to the PUC as well). So ... you can rest assured that the issue is being studiedd ad nausium, even as we speak.
:roll:
You gota laugh ... SCE has no issues supplying PLENTY of power to refineries to make gas ... but QC power so that we need less refineries to make gas? ... why ... that's just crazy talk.

CA utility commission (?) needs to make an exception on demand charges for QCs.

I think they should exempt QC from demand charges for 3 years while they study the effect on the grid. Is it bad because of the added peak load of QC? ............... snip .......

do you realize how many elevators (demand charge) are running every single hour ? why aren't we trying to limit elevator hydrolic pumps ... you can name any of several dozen demand functions that go on daily and raise the same issue. It's funny that there's ALWAYS enough power for the OTHER guys use ... but introduce an electricity use that drops collateral electricity use in other industries (refinery example above), and the response is, "no no no no no no".

 

[TonyWilliams]

You gota laugh ... SCE has no issues supplying PLENTY of power to refineries to make gas ... but QC power so that we need less refineries to make gas? ... why ... that's just crazy talk.

Are you suggesting that the oil industry doesn't pay demand fees?

 

[smkettner]

I would love to see the actual bill to a CA refinery. Total kWh, total due. I bet the cost is not near what we pay as small consumers.
Of course they use the power 24/7/365. Providing all the infrastructure to use the power only 30 minutes twice a day for QC is not that efficient.

 

[Herm]

We should burn down those evil refineries, then you would see demand for BEVs increase. You go first...

 

[hill]

You gota laugh ... SCE has no issues supplying PLENTY of power to refineries to make gas ... but QC power so that we need less refineries to make gas? ... why ... that's just crazy talk.

Are you suggesting that the oil industry doesn't pay demand fees?

oh no - it's just that if there were more folks in EV's (not using petro fuel) then there'd be less demand to be having refineries at all. Eventually, come post peak oil ... refinery use will be nil anyway ... or maybe we need to wait until that happens ...