Curious why you bought your leaf?

[Nhinman]

My motivation in buying a Leaf was not noble or in support of environmental improvement. It was mostly in wanting some of my tax money back. I have a 2007 Frontier PU that I love. It's getting close to 100K miles on it and I started shopping around for a replacement. I couldn't find anything I liked more than what I already have, so I decided to just to keep it and get something to drive around to keep from adding so many miles to my truck. I did some things last year that increased my tax liability. I got $2500 from my state and $7500 back on my Federal taxes on my Leaf purchase. That's $10,000 back.

Even with the $10K back, the Leaf was still a little pricey. It's kind of fun to drive though, and it works out great for something to drive back and forth to work and around town with. I figure what I save on gas and maintenance will be a wash when I have to buy a $6000 replacement battery.

It's just my luck that when I decide to buy an electric car - gas drops to $2 a gallon.

 

[RonDawg]

There is also no option to buy the Fit EV. Honda has offered one lease extension so far (and is offering pre-leased ones to new customers, since the car is out of production), but only Honda knows how long they will do this. And once they are "called home" they will chopped up and sent on a container ship to China.

How do you know they will chop them up? BMW is using their lease-return Active-E vehicles as a fleet for vehicle sharing. Some Fit EVs already are in service in that way with ZipCar.

BMW is using a limited amount of Active-E's in other uses, but there is a pic posted elsewhere on this forum of a flatbed truck full of squashed Active-E's on their way to the scrapyard. See https://transportevolved.com/2014/05/23/history-repeats-bmw-openly-crushes-active-e-electric-car/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Honda classified the Fit EV as a "prototype" it too will meet the same fate as the GM EV-1 and Honda's own EVPlus. If they don't intend to destroy them eventually then why not let you buy the lease out?

 

[leafedbehind]

If Honda classified the Fit EV as a "prototype" it too will meet the same fate as the GM EV-1 and Honda's own EVPlus. If they don't intend to destroy them eventually then why not let you buy the lease out?

Because they don't want to be on the hook for parts and service for such a short-run car. With their lease that includes comprehensive insurance coverage, they can choose to terminate your lease rather than fix the car, if it is overly expensive for them to do.

In any case, most cars are destroyed eventually. They may very well destroy them as soon as the 2-year lease extensions are up, for a total of five years of life -- I don't know. I wish they would let me buy out the lease, but then, I would indeed expect to be able to get parts. Anyway, I was just asking how you knew what they were going to do with the cars, since I follow the whole Fit EV thing rather closely, and I don't know myself.

 

[greengate]

Right here's my reason.

The unexpected benefits were;

Huge gas and maintenance savings.

Wonderful handling and driving experience.

 

[RonDawg]

If Honda classified the Fit EV as a "prototype" it too will meet the same fate as the GM EV-1 and Honda's own EVPlus. If they don't intend to destroy them eventually then why not let you buy the lease out?

]Because they don't want to be on the hook for parts and service for such a short-run car. With their lease that includes comprehensive insurance coverage, they can choose to terminate your lease rather than fix the car, if it is overly expensive for them to do.

Exactly. They don't want to be supporting a very low production car for unique parts. That's why they don't want to sell them outright, because they will have to do so for years to come. So once they are no longer useful to Honda, they get destroyed.

In any case, most cars are destroyed eventually. They may very well destroy them as soon as the 2-year lease extensions are up, for a total of five years of life -- I don't know. I wish they would let me buy out the lease, but then, I would indeed expect to be able to get parts.

5 years is an awfully short life for a modern car. Many new car loans today are for longer than that. But Honda apparently feels it is less expensive to make a limited run of cars to satisfy CARB, lease them for a few years, then dispose of them, than to either buy credits or support those cars with parts for many years in the future.

Anyway, I was just asking how you knew what they were going to do with the cars, since I follow the whole Fit EV thing rather closely, and I don't know myself.

I'm going by previous examples with "lease only" EV's like the GM EV-1 and Honda's own EVPlus, as well as BMW's Active E.

 

[aarond12]

Why did I purchase my LEAF (instead of leasing)? In short, to save money.

I got a "used" 2015 LEAF with only 225 miles on the odometer for $20K. I was already driving a Mitsubishi i-MiEV (I got one of the $69/month $0 down leases) so I knew an all-electric vehicle would work for me.

Spending very little on electricity (I drive <7500/year) and nothing on gas, oil changes, filter changes, transmission fluid replacement, etc., means I am driving a very inexpensive vehicle. It's nice to do something good for the environment, but that wasn't my primary motivation.

 

[Sondy132001]

I got a 2012 with less than 24k miles on it for $12,500 and I wanted to drive the carpool lane to work and stop paying $300 a month on the toll roads ! Commuter car for me ! Everyone loves my car, my college son drives it often around town, loves driving by gas stations !

 

[leafedbehind]

5 years is an awfully short life for a modern car. Many new car loans today are for longer than that. But Honda apparently feels it is less expensive to make a limited run of cars to satisfy CARB, lease them for a few years, then dispose of them, than to either buy credits or support those cars with parts for many years in the future.

Yep. While I certainly support the idea of leveling the playing field for EVs vs ICEs, CARB does provide some perverse incentives. I can only hope Honda is using the experience to build a high-volume BEV soon. They appear to be working on something, based on discussions with some Honda reps last month.

I would also hope they keep the Fit EVs in service as long as possible through car-sharing programs, and take them out only when something too expensive to fix goes wrong.

 

[Nubo]

don't forget that the vast majority of people who want one will not get the tax credit unless they are married with high enough combined income and or use a lease (theirs or buy used lease leaf) so someone else got the credit.

Do we have an idea of what that number is?
Maybe a ballpark of "you will probably qualify if you make over $75,000 per year" (Totally made that up) or whatever??

I just wonder how much is a "vast majority."

desiv

On average, I'd say that if you can *reasonably* afford to buy a brand-new car at around $30k, then you probably have at least $7500 federal tax liability. Admittedly that doesn't cover someone living off of savings, or low income who has saved for years to buy this one new car, etc...

edit: removed insensitive statement.

 

[nerys]

What is not to understand?

The people who actually need this car the people for which this car will actually make a tangible improvement in their lives do not qualify for the rebate

The ones who do qualify are exactly the ones who do not actually "need" the rebate or even need an electric car.

Those people want it. Lower jncome people need it.

The rebate is touted as makjng it more affordable implying for the ones who need it lower income.

So it is a bit of a slap in the face to find out nope. The lower incomes cant have it. In fact the lower 60% or higher do not qualify.

A bit of a nasty slap on the face.

Look at my situatiOn. Granted i am an extreme outlier. This car will save me $7000 to $8000 a year just in fuel Alone. Add in the other savings.....

Drives you nuts to know the tech is their to dramatically jmprove your live but sorry you cant afford it.

We have this rebate. With it you can afford it. But haha you cant have the rebate.

Thankfully the rebate effects depreciation so i just had to wait a few years to afford it.

 

[Slow1]

The rebate is touted as makjng it more affordable implying for the ones who need it lower income.

So it is a bit of a slap in the face to find out nope. The lower incomes cant have it. In fact the lower 60% or higher do not qualify.

A bit of a nasty slap on the face.

I don't believe that the intent of the rebate really is "to put the technology in the hands of those who most can benefit"; rather I believe it is to simply increase demand by lower the net cost to consumers in order to stimulate demand during the relatively lower volume stage of the EV product evolution. The theory then goes along the lines production volume will be increased faster, thus reducing (through economy of scale and tech improvements in each subsequent generation) the product costs and making for a viable market sooner.

I'm betting the reason for the rebate being constructed the way it is (non-refundable) has more to do with the political issues related to 'giving out' $7500 to those who buy qualified EVs and instead calling it a "reduction in taxes". Not really any different in terms of total revenue if someone has the tax liability, but some people find it politically inconvenient to give a cash subsidy - particularly if someone ends up getting back more than they paid in.

I have no idea why the Solar credit is a refundable rebate - heck I can't figure out any logic when it comes to these things. Politics of using tax code to change behavior is just... well... messed up IMO.

At least the loophole is there for leases - that does help quite a bit I'm sure in terms of enabling folks who may not have sufficient tax liability to cover the rebate.

 

[Nubo]

What is not to understand?
The people who actually need this car the people for which this car will actually make a tangible improvement in their lives do not qualify for the rebate
The ones who do qualify are exactly the ones who do not actually "need" the rebate or even need an electric car.
Those people want it. Lower jncome people need it.
The rebate is touted as makjng it more affordable implying for the ones who need it lower income.
So it is a bit of a slap in the face to find out nope. The lower incomes cant have it. In fact the lower 60% or higher do not qualify.
A bit of a nasty slap on the face.
Look at my situatiOn. Granted i am an extreme outlier. This car will save me $7000 to $8000 a year just in fuel Alone. Add in the other savings.....
Drives you nuts to know the tech is their to dramatically jmprove your live but sorry you cant afford it.
We have this rebate. With it you can afford it. But haha you cant have the rebate.
Thankfully the rebate effects depreciation so i just had to wait a few years to afford it.

What I'm trying to say is that if someone doesn't have enough yearly income to generate $7500 in tax liability, then it's unlikely that they have enough income to justify purchase of a brand-new car. We may differ on what constitutes "reasonably". I spent a number of years with low income and I would never have dreamed of buying a new car, regardless of how much I might have thought I "needed" one. I drove used cars. OLD used cars. I'd been driving for 10 years, and had a good job 4 years, before I felt I was no longer low-income and thought it was reasonable to purchase a new car and even then it was a cheap econo-box.

edit: removed pointless double line-spacing

 

[minispeed]

alas I did not qualify. I am happy it went this way however as the fit was a compliance car while nissan is the real deal.

I'm curious as to why this matters to you. What does it mean to you for the LEAF to be the "real deal"? I'm genuinely curious -- I own both. The Fit is more fun to drive and the battery hasn't degraded. The LEAF is more practical (larger). But the fact that one is a "compliance" vehicle and the other is not has no bearing on how I feel about them as cars. I think Nissan is more serious about EVs, but Honda made a better EV, at least in the 2011-2013 timeframe.

It matters to me because of service. Fit EV wasn't available to me, Focus, Spark (used) and Leaf were. In Canada the Spark is GM fleet sales only. And although I wouldn't call the Focus a full compliance car the fact that they offer it for sale in places where there is little to no dealership support for it makes it worse from a service stand point than a compliance car in a compliance state. I really wanted the Focus and Spark over the leaf I just wasn't willing to have the chance that a simple problem might take a dealership weeks to even start working on it due to needing a tool and or specialist being brought in.

 

[nerys]

There is a rather massive chunk of the lower income class of citizens who can not afford a $30,000 but who can afford a $20,000 car especially when you factor in credit and interest rates.

And the factor in fuel and other savings.

A person who can afford a brand new $16,000 car can also afford a $22,000 when you factor in fuel savings.

But can not afford a $30,000 car.

Again especially when you factor in interest.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

It matters to me because of service. Fit EV wasn't available to me, Focus, Spark (used) and Leaf were. In Canada the Spark is GM fleet sales only. And although I wouldn't call the Focus a full compliance car the fact that they offer it for sale in places where there is little to no dealership support for it makes it worse from a service stand point than a compliance car in a compliance state. I really wanted the Focus and Spark over the leaf I just wasn't willing to have the chance that a simple problem might take a dealership weeks to even start working on it due to needing a tool and or specialist being brought in.

Hear, hear!
I've got a Chevy dealer literally right across the street from my house (my house is in a rather bizarre location, I must say), so I've been looking at either a Spark EV or a Volt (or a Bolt, depending on timing) for my next car. I like the idea that I can bug the hell out of the dealer to get things moving on it by just walking over there a few times a day But there's no Spark EVs within 100 miles of me (but there are some within 150!), and I don't really like the Volt all that much, honestly... so I'll probably end up waiting until Bolt to even consider it. By then, I'll probably be wooed by Tesla's Model III.
(But more than anything, I want a Fit EV.)

 

[desiv]

A person who can afford a brand new $16,000 car can also afford a $22,000 when you factor in fuel savings.
But can not afford a $30,000 car.

True sometimes (When I was less financially stable, I frequently couldn't afford to pay more to save money. So If I could afford $16k, I might not be able to afford $22k even tho it would save me more later.), but one of the questions is, should that person be looking for a new car?
Or is that the prime case for a used car at $12k or so..

Like many of the others, when my income was lower, I didn't even consider a new car.

The incentives were designed to get the car out there... Get more early adopters (which should eventually drive down the price.)
True, it doesn't get the car directly to people below a certain income level but those people now can afford (possibly) a used Leaf that was purchased with that rebate.

So, the rebate IS helping the lower income afford an EV, even if not directly. ;-)

desiv

 

[ishiyakazuo]

A person who can afford a brand new $16,000 car can also afford a $22,000 when you factor in fuel savings.
But can not afford a $30,000 car.

True sometimes (When I was less financially stable, I frequently couldn't afford to pay more to save money. So If I could afford $16k, I might not be able to afford $22k even tho it would save me more later.), but one of the questions is, should that person be looking for a new car?
Or is that the prime case for a used car at $12k or so..

Like many of the others, when my income was lower, I didn't even consider a new car.

The incentives were designed to get the car out there... Get more early adopters (which should eventually drive down the price.)
True, it doesn't get the car directly to people below a certain income level but those people now can afford (possibly) a used Leaf that was purchased with that rebate.

So, the rebate IS helping the lower income afford an EV, even if not directly. ;-)

It's true -- the prices on lightly used LEAFs has been improved because of the incentive(s), so that's a great way to look at it. I was glad to take advantage of that bit.

 

[Nubo]

There is a rather massive chunk of the lower income class of citizens who can not afford a $30,000 but who can afford a $20,000 car especially when you factor in credit and interest rates.
And the factor in fuel and other savings.
A person who can afford a brand new $16,000 car can also afford a $22,000 when you factor in fuel savings.
But can not afford a $30,000 car.
Again especially when you factor in interest.

Ok, I see where you're coming from. There is a difference (at least politically) between a tax credit (which lets you keep some of your money) vs a rebate, in which the government gives you other peoples' money. Here in CA, we do both.

 

[eloder]

alas I did not qualify. I am happy it went this way however as the fit was a compliance car while nissan is the real deal.

I'm curious as to why this matters to you. What does it mean to you for the LEAF to be the "real deal"? I'm genuinely curious -- I own both. The Fit is more fun to drive and the battery hasn't degraded. The LEAF is more practical (larger). But the fact that one is a "compliance" vehicle and the other is not has no bearing on how I feel about them as cars. I think Nissan is more serious about EVs, but Honda made a better EV, at least in the 2011-2013 timeframe.

Because not everyone lives in California, and most of the country has only a small handful of EVs to buy.

 

[redleafusa]

Electric plug-in cars are the only modern vehicles that have pushed the envelope of technology in meaningful ways. 124 MPGe is light years ahead of anything with an ICE, including standard hybrids. I haven't used a sound decibel meter in our new 2015 Leaf, but I'm pretty sure it's quieter than all ICE vehicles, including luxury brands. Acceleration blows away comparable ICE vehicles. Minimal maintenance and zero emissions. Other than longer range, or a lower price with the same range, what more could I ask for that's meaningful?

We are proud tree huggers, but practical too. My 1995 Mazda Protege, that I purchased new, still runs fine with 250K miles and still gets 40 MPG on the highway at 65 MPH. I've done my own maintenance over the years and know all the limitations of ICE vehicles, even reliable ones like the Protege. I won't miss the oil changes, throttle plate cleaning, spark plug changes, exhaust part replacements, EGR valves cleaning, etc. ICE cars seems archaic compared to our new electric Leaf.

We leased the Leaf for the immediate tax credit, but will likely buy it after 3 years. The residual is only $11.6K. The car has exceeded our expectations and we love driving it. We will probably keep it for 20 years too. Even with 2 bars of loss every 5 years, it will still give us 28 miles of range after 20 years, which exceeds our daily use today. Pop a new battery in it and go another 20 years!

I can't believe more two vehicle households haven't gone electric for one car. It's the future of auto travel and it's available today for a modest price.