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tkdbrusco said:
TomT said:
You may be in for a rude awakening three years down the road... Leafs are reselling for far less than anyone anticipated...
That is but one of the reasons why I leased...

tkdbrusco said:
There's a strong likelihood that I will be able to sell it in 3 years and break even, or worst case scenario, lose about $2K

I need to get $13K in 3 years for a break even price. I can't imagine that a used leaf would be sub $10K even in the most dire of circumstances. Used 2011's are selling for 11-12K right now.
Not really . . . maybe you ought to imagine a little better than what you imagine right now ... here's a completed Leaf (includes Phil's portable mod'ed evse) listing AND SOLD, quite a bit south of your hoped for-$10K . . . . sorry but ;

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf-SV-2011-nissan-leaf-sv-with-upgraded-evse-/251828426915?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3aa224d8a3&item=251828426915&pt=US_Cars_Trucks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the way the cookie crumbles
.
 
=tkdbrusco...Used 2011's are selling for 11-12K right now.
You are right, "Used 2011's are selling for 11-12K right now" in the bay area if they are SLs, have low miles and have a DC port .

That EBAY sale was a decent buy (if no other major flaws went undisclosed) but it's an SV, and with 65k+ miles, so it's probably only got ~35k miles left until it hits ~70% battery capacity.

Deduct between $2k and $3k for those deficiencies, and the $8,850.00 sale price was close to market.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf-SV-2011-nissan-leaf-sv-with-upgraded-evse-/251828426915?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3aa224d8a3&item=251828426915&pt=US_Cars_Trucks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Ebay auto prices are meaningless for the most part... You'll never get that from established sources for the average model...

hill said:
here's a completed Leaf (includes Phil's portable mod'ed evse) listing AND SOLD, quite a bit south of your hoped for-$10K . . . . sorry but
 
ishiyakazuo said:
I have to wonder (out loud)... has anyone actually done this (parted out a LEAF to make another EV)? I imagine that without aerodynamic tricks such as the bulging headlights, it might be really annoying and/or slow compared to a stock LEAF.

There aren't many aero tricks on the leaf that can't be replicated. The headlights are to reduce wind noise passing over the side view mirror. The side view mirrors are some of the worst parts for aerodynamics on any car, just because of the way they have to function. On a dedicated EV build the easiest trick is to just take off the mirrors, replace them with mirrors on the inside of the door, cameras and or a super wide centre mirror. A lot of older cars don't require a passenger side mirror too.

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List

There's a lot of older cars on there that have the same or better CdA than the leaf. From an engineering achievement we always talk about drag as Cd because the lower you get it the better job the designer did with aero. For a consumer comparison most people don't cross shop civic coupes to SUVs so most cars in the same class the one with the lower Cd will probably be more aerodynamic but from a "how far can you go" point of view it's CdA that matters. Prime example is Tesla vs Gen III Prius. Same CdA so they take the same energy to go down the road at the same speed but Tesla did more work to get the low Cd since they were handicapped by a high frontal area. Another way to think of it is HP. It's common to take a big engine from a big car and put it in a small car, you see the performance increase because of the low weight. If you take an EV battery from a big car and put it in a smaller car you *may* see a range increase because of a higher frontal area. The things that govern that may can usually be controlled, ie no longer needing a front air intake, no more side mirrors, making a flat underbelly or adding wheel covers.

In terms of it being done, there is a guy on ecomodder (not very active so don't expect regular updates) who is putting a leaf drive train in an insight. That will blow the leaf out of the water for aero. And there was just a guy on here posting used leaf parts for sale, he's putting the leaf battery only in an S10. I also found a page selling new batteries for ev conversions. They sold leaf batteries new from 2013 that were charged to 30% at the factory and never installed. They come without the case so it sounds like they are left over stock from the 2012 to 2013 battery switch being sold off. Right now it's close to the cheapest way to get brand new 8+ kWh packs.

Depending on my time line and how long the leaf range is still good for me, plus value. I may play with putting a very small DC EV kit in the front of the mini, try to keep everything under the hood, just enough to let it drive around town at around the original power, 35lb/ft then later look at adding the leaf rwd to make an awd. However I think the best way to do the conversion would be using a smart EV, the rear subframe with suspension all comes off but then there's no QC and it's less power.
 
I don't understand the complaints about depreciation. Our price was 28,xxx before tax, etc. But we had state and fed. credits of 11,000. So what we PAID was 17,xxx. I would expect the value to start from there and go down, not from 28k. If I went to buy a 1 day old (used) LEAF, I wouldn't pay over 17k, since I could just buy a new one for that. If I went to buy a 3 year old LEAF, I would compare the price to the 17k I would have to pay for a new one, and value it accordingly.

Now, once the tax credits disappear….
 
don't forget that the vast majority of people who want one will not get the tax credit unless they are married with high enough combined income and or use a lease (theirs or buy used lease leaf) so someone else got the credit.
 
nerys said:
don't forget that the vast majority of people who want one will not get the tax credit unless they are married with high enough combined income and or use a lease (theirs or buy used lease leaf) so someone else got the credit.
Do we have an idea of what that number is?
Maybe a ballpark of "you will probably qualify if you make over $75,000 per year" (Totally made that up) or whatever??

I just wonder how much is a "vast majority."

desiv
 
nerys said:
don't forget that the vast majority of people who want one will not get the tax credit unless they are married with high enough combined income and or use a lease (theirs or buy used lease leaf) so someone else got the credit.

Hmm I wonder how much the 'premimum' for doing a lease and buying it out (if that was the plan) is? Seems like a reasonable plan. I suspect it makes it worth leasing if you don't directly qualify for the federal rebate.

In any case I do think the point stands - the initial value of the car should include all reasonable incentives and the federal tax credit is reasonable to assume in the valuation. Depreciation (IMO) should be calculated using that as a baseline so if the $28K sticker price is brought down to $17K based on incentives in a given market then consider that the fair baseline valuation.

Where this gets interesting is when incentives go away. If ALL were to go away and the mfg still sells at the original price, then a year later that used car would have cost $17k to the owner, but someone shopping around would have to pay $28K new - I do believe in that case it would be fair to consider a price somewhere closer to the $28K and the car would in effect have appreciated in value due to incentive expiration. Nice boost to used vehicle prices in that case...

As for me - I bought with the idea of owning until the car no longer meets our needs and/or has maintenance costs that exceed other alternatives. IF I were to sell it this year I consider it a 1 year old car with about $17K initial value and would expect to get less than that on sale...
 
nerys said:
don't forget that the vast majority of people who want one will not get the tax credit unless they are married with high enough combined income and or use a lease (theirs or buy used lease leaf) so someone else got the credit.
Anyone can lease-then-buy and get ~ the full $7,500 credit.

And used LEAF buyers all benefit indirectly from the tax credit and other incentives on new LEAF sales, due to the large effects they have had in reducing the sales price of used LEAFs.

Cmahrle said:
I don't understand the complaints about depreciation...
Some people have a high propensity to complain, and a low aptitude for math...
 
it is around $60,000 before you will owe enough in taxes to fully collect the $7500 rebate.

median income for an individual in the US is $32,000 so 50% of the individual working population does not come even close to making enough.

NOW if a pair make $32k each married as a couple I think that would qualify them for the full rebate???

if however you deduct your property taxes (Now sure how that works I don't make enough to qualify for that either) my guess is this bar goes higher still.

which is why it was kind of a red herring and is also why LEASING is very popular since in many cases the dealer gets the $7500 and credits you that value on the price of the car IE instant $7500 reduction in price so to speak.

buying a used leaf means you gain the benefit of this $7500 rebate without having to qualify for it financially. Buying a used leaf also solves the nasty mileage issue regarding leasing. IE I can't lease since I drive 30 to 40 thousand miles a year.

the rate at which I can charge the leaf and the ultimate range per charge limit how much I can drive my leaf so I will probably be around 30,000 miles a year (on track for 28k as of now but that might rise as warmer weather increases my usable range)
 
Thanx for the info,
nerys said:
buying a used leaf means you gain the benefit of this $7500 rebate without having to qualify for it financially. Buying a used leaf also solves the nasty mileage issue regarding leasing. IE I can't lease since I drive 30 to 40 thousand miles a year.
Which is exactly why I bought used.. ;-)

desiv
 
oh trust me. if I had qualified for one of those spiffy $200 lease programs with unlimited mileage (fit ev) that is precisely what I would have done.

get the benefits of EV now without the hassle of "new tech" then buy second gen with more mileage and bugs worked out. hell yes.

alas I did not qualify. I am happy it went this way however as the fit was a compliance car while nissan is the real deal.

like em or hate em they get huge bonus points for that alone from me.
 
nerys said:
don't forget that the vast majority of people who want one will not get the tax credit unless they are married with high enough combined income and or use a lease (theirs or buy used lease leaf) so someone else got the credit.

Not true. You do have to have a high enough income after all other deductions to fully take advantage of it. But you don't have to be married (I'm not) and while $32k may be the median income in the US, in California you'd have a difficult time making ends meet on that kind of salary even as a single person, meaning that even a leased Leaf may be unaffordable at such a salary.
 
nerys said:
oh trust me. if I had qualified for one of those spiffy $200 lease programs with unlimited mileage (fit ev) that is precisely what I would have done.

There is also no option to buy the Fit EV. Honda has offered one lease extension so far (and is offering pre-leased ones to new customers, since the car is out of production), but only Honda knows how long they will do this. And once they are "called home" they will chopped up and sent on a container ship to China.
 
RonDawg said:
There is also no option to buy the Fit EV. Honda has offered one lease extension so far (and is offering pre-leased ones to new customers, since the car is out of production), but only Honda knows how long they will do this. And once they are "called home" they will chopped up and sent on a container ship to China.

How do you know they will chop them up? BMW is using their lease-return Active-E vehicles as a fleet for vehicle sharing. Some Fit EVs already are in service in that way with ZipCar.
 
nerys said:
alas I did not qualify. I am happy it went this way however as the fit was a compliance car while nissan is the real deal.

I'm curious as to why this matters to you. What does it mean to you for the LEAF to be the "real deal"? I'm genuinely curious -- I own both. The Fit is more fun to drive and the battery hasn't degraded. The LEAF is more practical (larger). But the fact that one is a "compliance" vehicle and the other is not has no bearing on how I feel about them as cars. I think Nissan is more serious about EVs, but Honda made a better EV, at least in the 2011-2013 timeframe.
 
leafedbehind said:
I'm curious as to why this matters to you. What does it mean to you for the LEAF to be the "real deal"? I'm genuinely curious -- I own both. The Fit is more fun to drive and the battery hasn't degraded. The LEAF is more practical (larger). But the fact that one is a "compliance" vehicle and the other is not has no bearing on how I feel about them as cars. I think Nissan is more serious about EVs, but Honda made a better EV, at least in the 2011-2013 timeframe.
Personally, I am very sad about them not releasing this car for sale. My ICE is a Honda Fit, and I would be quite OK with a Fit EV as my commuter. I've been a big Honda guy and come from a Honda family, so I would've been heavily inclined toward the purchase of a Fit EV if that option was available.
 
leafedbehind said:
nerys said:
alas I did not qualify. I am happy it went this way however as the fit was a compliance car while nissan is the real deal.

I'm curious as to why this matters to you. What does it mean to you for the LEAF to be the "real deal"? I'm genuinely curious -- I own both. The Fit is more fun to drive and the battery hasn't degraded. The LEAF is more practical (larger). But the fact that one is a "compliance" vehicle and the other is not has no bearing on how I feel about them as cars. I think Nissan is more serious about EVs, but Honda made a better EV, at least in the 2011-2013 timeframe.


but it does have a bearing on how I feel about them as a company and that IS important.

I took the fit for a test drive. I loved it. again if I had an option I would have leased one alas It was not good enough for them :)

and no. you do not own a fit. it is not possible to own a fit ev.

that is part of the problem. I want to own it. have it be mine. completely. not AS important but still important.

all else being equal if I have a choice I would pick the company I like better over the company I don't like as much.
 
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