Curious why you bought your leaf?

[redLEAF]

I guess I've always been kind of an 'early adopter' when it comes to cars but typically don't want to openly admit it --- some 'new' cars are so 'hot' (i.e., HUGE dealer markups at intro) that I'll wait a few years but in this case with the LEAF ($7,500 Fed Tax Credit; (up to) $4,000 EV IL EPA rebate; low cost 'EL' plates and IL 50% EVSE + install rebate) it literally 'begged' you to give EV's a try.

I had also checked out The Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Ford Focus Electric and Chevy Volt but all of these were just coming to market in Chicago about the time I took delivery on my LEAF in December of 2011; some I was able to see but not touch/drive and still have no regrets to this day. Nissan also offered a driving event down by the Lake Shore and then later once my local dealer had a demo a few months before taking delivery so that helped seal the deal as well.

So main reasons for LEAF over others or in general:

LEAF versus Volt -- 100% electric and had other cars for longer trips; 'early' Volt seemed tight in the back seats, less cargo room, unsure of reliability of 'dual' power trains (at the time); was a bit more money (at the time) than a similar LEAF (after all credits & rebates) and (at the time) couldn't justify its 'extra' value with extended range; the next gen Volt with 50 miles of EV range could change this at LOT

LEAF versus FFE -- if the FFE was available sooner, it was a strong possibility, big compromise on trunk space and then some early odd reliability reports, dealers were even more clueless than the Nissan dealers (at the time) which didn't inspire confidence; 'production' FFE's showed up months after taking delivery on my LEAF (at least in my area)

LEAF versus i-MiEV -- even though this was the 'bigger' model than what they have in Japan, it had very cheap looking interior bits; odd boxy body and looked more toy-like than anything out there; Mitsu also doesn't have the greatest track record in the U.S. versus Nissan or Ford so that was against the i-MiEV from the start; if you wanted the least expensive EV it was the way go though


In general:

- love simply coming home and avoiding gas stations to fill-up; we have fixed $/kWh electricity pricing so doesn't matter 'when' we charge it as well (although typically charge over night)
- still can't believe how quiet it is; decent smooth ride, comfortable cloth seats
- maintenance; what maintenance? annual battery checks, tire rotations, cabin filter, brake fluid; that's about it ---
- heated seats, front & back and heated steering wheel; these will suffice most 'moderate' cold days to save range
- utility of it being a hatch-back for errands (even though we have a '12 with the between the shock tower 'bulge', still plenty of cargo room)
- not bothered as much when we get stuck in stop & go traffic; this thing actually will 'improve' range a bit versus ICE idling, have XM radio and USB music to pass the time
- in 'normal' and not ECO mode, the car will scoot; leaves other econo boxes behind when needed; not certainly a sports car but no slouch either
- did I mention it runs on 100% emissions free electricity? ... some who argue 'well, your electricity comes from a coal powered utility station; I come back with do you have any idea how much energy, etc. (as well as the whole geo-political aspects) it takes to get gasoline from the ground > refinery > distribution station/port > gas station ?? and then how much 'energy' in the gas actually power the wheels (I love the look on their faces when most have never thought of it --- at least gets them to think)
- car longevity; I'm not really sure how long we'll keep our LEAF, the 'mechanical' aspect should last a very long time as long as our salty roads don't rot the body too much --- resale values aren't great but I don't see why it won't last 8 to 10 years or more when that won't be a factor; only issue would be as the value drops what you get from insurance if it gets totaled before you're ready for something to replace it.
- REALLY curious if the next gen of battery tech will allow us to get longer range batteries like Tesla offers for their roadsters now --- this will extend the usability and possibly boost resale values if not cost prohibitive but its worth waiting to see what happens; isn't EV technology great ??
- so far, at 39 months in -- battery degradation is quite minimal and has not yet impacted any potential trip --- yet --- nice to know we're covered but will be curious if its gradual or starts ramping up with warmer weather, etc.; let's see if next year at this time I'm just as happy

 

[nerys]

From a purely wasting energy angles gasoline engines are less than 2% efficient. Not 20%

The 20% is the secondary energy extraction not the primary.

You burn the fuel. 2% of the energy potential of the fuel is converted to heat. Of that 2% heat conversion you extract 20% of that 2% into mechanical motion. They are 20% efficienct at extracting wirk from the heat not at extracting energy from the fuel.

Ice only makes sense if your selling oil.

Very very inefficient. We can ig ore grid efficiency only because both ev and ice source their original energy of production from that same grid. So thise losses apply to both for the most part.

 

[jamieo]

I bought mine because I wanted to try out something new. The technology is exciting.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Wasn't the LEAF pretty much designed for Japan's automotive market? It was, at the very least, designed IN Japan. Japanese roads are plenty mountainous, and the climate gets pretty cold and snowy at times too...
What exactly is it about remote, and mountainous driving that you feel the LEAF was not designed for?

How about 70 mile grocery shopping trips in winter with 2500 feet of elevation change?

The short range LEAF was designed as a urban/suburban commuter and errand runner. It wasn't designed for remote rural living where very long trips to get anywhere are the norm. And, of course, in rural areas the charge station infrastructure tends to be sparse. We got our first three public charge stations here less than a year ago. And the nearest DCFC station remains 300 miles away.

I never recommend the LEAF to friends or neighbors here. It is simply not an appropriate car for this area unless one is willing to make it work and enjoys the challenge. As I do.

 

[Slow1]

1) I can't yet afford a Tesla

2) "Geek appeal" - I just like the idea of driving electric, new tech etc.

3) I can't yet afford a Tesla

4) After rebates etc, I expect TCO will not be much more than the ICE vehicle it replaced. Thank you US and MA tax payers for pitching in!

5) I can't yet afford a Tesla

6) Because I can. Our usage pattern matches the Leaf well 95+% of the time; Tesla Model-X could take that to 99+% (we do in fact utilize all 8 seats in our minivan about 2x a week so can't quite hit 100%).

7) All joking aside I believe in BEV tech for the future and see Tesla as having it down. IF I could support Tesla by buying their product I would; however the Leaf is the best I can do. At least it shows support for BEV technology.

 

[hill]

Because I couldn't afford a Tesla :lol:

Same here . . . but also because I can fuel it for free, right from our fully amortized - smog free, roof-top PV. If I were able to build a refinery in our back yard, that wouldn't be the case.
.

 

[minispeed]

Because I couldn't afford a Tesla :lol:

Same here . . . but also because I can fuel it for free, right from our fully amortized - smog free, roof-top PV. If I were able to build a refinery in our back yard, that wouldn't be the case.
.

Yes and when the Zombie apocalypse comes you can still charge solar. Gas goes bad, it won't last nearly as long as they portray in all the shows/movies. Diesel is good for long term storage too but then you don't have stealth!

 

[nerys]

In an older less picky engine gas can last quite a while. Years. If you remove the ethanol. While the ethanol wont make the gas go bad it will destroy your storage container.

5 years or more is quite doable treated and stored properly

Store some octane booster with it.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Same here . . . but also because I can fuel it for free, right from our fully amortized - smog free, roof-top PV...

Yes, being able to drive on "sun-power" was a major goal in my LEAF purchase and something I wanted to be able to do a decade before the LEAF became available. I budgeted the solar panels as part of the cost of a new car.

 

[nerys]

I hope to eventually snag 2 leaf or similar batteries. Use then to charge off solar and then use those to charge the leaf. Even down to 50% soc they will recharge a leaf together. Then 100% free driving after amortization of purchase.

Hey. I can dream ehh

 

[mbender]

The waste in energy of making either fuel is absolutely massive... I'd not be surprised if it came out as a wash in the end. (Maybe it's just where the waste happens that makes the difference?)

Well, that's why I specified "home-solar-generated". But even if it's not, I suspect that the losses aren't as great for the present American grid, on-average, compared to the average losses for oil. And the grid is only getting cleaner, greener and meaner , while the (unmanipulated) well-to-pump costs of petroleum are only going up. So I'd rather be on the left side of that equation, as it were ;-) ...

 

[mbender]

From a purely wasting energy angles gasoline engines are less than 2% efficient. Not 20%

The 20% is the secondary energy extraction not the primary.

You burn the fuel. 2% of the energy potential of the fuel is converted to heat. Of that 2% heat conversion you extract 20% of that 2% into mechanical motion. They are 20% efficient at extracting work from the heat not at extracting energy from the fuel.

Well, we agree on the simple matter of the inefficiency of internal combustion, but otherwise (again), "Whaaaat" ?? Unless you have several typos and juxtapositions, where in the world do you get this kind of "information"?! 2% of the energy potential is turned into heat??? And even if your numbers were right, 20% of 2% would mean 0.4% efficiency, or more than 99% inefficiency.

The best (closest to accurate and most generous) interpretation that I can transform your numbers into might go something like this:

• 20% of the energy potential in gasoline combustion is NOT turned into heat. Of that 20% 'mechanical' energy used to move the vehicle,
  maybe 10% (or 2% of the original amount) is used to move the occupant(s) and their belongings/cargo, rather than the rest of the vehicle.

A brief extract from RMI along these lines:

The solution begins with automotive physics. Among current 25–30-mile-per-U.S.-gallon (mpg) autos, about six-sevenths of fuel energy is lost in converting fuel energy into actual movement. Only about 5–6 percent of fuel energy accelerates the auto; less than 0.5 percent moves the driver.

I don't want to (and will not) be drawn into another "debate" though. My head is still hurting (and my wall in need of repair) from the last one! :lol:

 

[tkdbrusco]

I basically bought mine because with all of the rebates and tax credits in CA, it was basically a free car. There's a strong likelihood that I will be able to sell it in 3 years and break even, or worst case scenario, lose about $2K, but if I only have to pay $2K to drive a brand new car for 3 years, then I'm in. Carpool sticker doesn't hurt either.

I also like the fact that I am able to get some of my tax money back from a government that takes too much of it from me. I'm actually against the whole taxpayer funding EV incentives, and other industries at that matter, but if I can't stop em, and if they are gonna just give my money away to other people, then I might as well get some back myself.

Personally I think the jury is still out on whether the environmental impact is positive. It depends on a lot of variables, such as where the electricity comes from, life of the car, life of the battery, etc...

I will say that after owning one for a little under a year, I prefer the driving experience to that of an ICE car, but that's not why I bought it.

 

[TomT]

You may be in for a rude awakening three years down the road... Leafs are reselling for far less than anyone anticipated...
That is but one of the reasons why I leased...

There's a strong likelihood that I will be able to sell it in 3 years and break even, or worst case scenario, lose about $2K

 

[tkdbrusco]

You may be in for a rude awakening three years down the road... Leafs are reselling for far less than anyone anticipated...
That is but one of the reasons why I leased...

There's a strong likelihood that I will be able to sell it in 3 years and break even, or worst case scenario, lose about $2K

I need to get $13K in 3 years for a break even price. I can't imagine that a used leaf would be sub $10K even in the most dire of circumstances. Used 2011's are selling for 11-12K right now.

 

[tkdbrusco]

You may be in for a rude awakening three years down the road... Leafs are reselling for far less than anyone anticipated...
That is but one of the reasons why I leased...

There's a strong likelihood that I will be able to sell it in 3 years and break even, or worst case scenario, lose about $2K

Here's the detailed breakdown of my thought process. I drive about 16K miles/year and my wife mostly charges at work (at now cost)

Bought a 2015 S wQC
-$3500 NMAC rebate
-$2600 Dealer discount
+$1250 100K warranty (ground them down from over $2K, not sure if I should have bought the warranty or not, but was a bit worried about the fact that there are no independent shops I can go to post warranty for the leaf.)
+ Taxes, license, delivery, etc...
Total Price = 29,686

-$2500 State Rebate
-$7500 Federal Credit
Total Cost = 19,686

Gas Savings for 3 years/16K miles a year (est.) ($4500)
Savings in depreciation of my other vehicle over 3 years due to reduced mileage (est.) ($1800)

True cost of car in 3 years = $13,386

So I need to sell it for $13,386 to break even on the deal. Perhaps even less because I can sell back the unused portion of the warranty, which might yield me $700-800. Even though the prices do drop significantly on the leaf, I can't imagine that I wouldn't get at least $11-12K for a used 2015 Leaf three years from now. When I compared this to the lease (at an increased mileage rate of 15K, the lease was a bit higher cost over the three year time (just under $10K total payments and if you subtract the gas savings and other car depreciation, it would be about $4K total cost to me after 3 years) So this means that if I wind up having to sell my leaf for $10K or even slightly less, I will be in the same place I would have been with a lease.

 

[nerys]

Your kidding right? I paid 17k for my 4800mile 12 sv and i can get a similar one today for 10k

I am seeing 15's for under 20k already.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

There's a strong likelihood that I will be able to sell it in 3 years and break even, or worst case scenario, lose about $2K

You may be in for a rude awakening three years down the road... Leafs are reselling for far less than anyone anticipated...
That is but one of the reasons why I leased...

I need to get $13K in 3 years for a break even price. I can't imagine that a used leaf would be sub $10K even in the most dire of circumstances. Used 2011's are selling for 11-12K right now.

I've seen at least one being offered under $10k in the Chicago area already. (It had something like 45k miles on it.)
I got mine for under $13k from a dealer, with 20k miles.

Now, I personally believe that the resale values have hit rock bottom (or very close). There are a number of factors that might come into play to increase the resale value of used LEAFs. Here are a couple of them that I thought of when I was trying to decide if I should buy a used LEAF:
1) If the federal EV rebate goes away, that may cause the prices of used EVs to rise (depending on what happens with prices of new EVs between now and then)
2) If Nissan comes out with an option to extend the range of existing LEAFs (i.e. higher capacity battery), that would likely also cause the resale value to increase.

All that being said... yeah, I wouldn't bank on "breaking even" on any car purchase, ever.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I agree that prices are likely near rock bottom and I don't see how they can go much lower, perhaps a bit in the short term, but by 2017/18 they come up a bit more.

Here's what's likely going to happen in a few years IMO.

- New BEVs hit the market with 200mi+ range (2017/2018) and priced roughly at $40K
- Nissan will be in a bad position with the used leaf market and will do one of two things to boost resale, either lower the price of replacement batteries, or increase the range of them. Either of these would boost resale tremendously.
- State rebates start to run out (CA rebate will be gone in a year or so, as will other states as well soon after)
- Federal $7500 Credit starts going away, or decreasing on some models. Nissan will likely hit it first, followed by Tesla. This may also drive them to provide options for early adopters of LEAF. They won't want to lose us to another manufacturer due to a decreased credit. Maybe this relates to a better battery replacement option.
- In 2018 they also stop giving carpool stickers in CA

Just look at 2017 as an example. Let's say that there's a Leaf Gen2 available at $38,000 with 200mi of range. The state credit is gone by then and you only have the federal option. I'm guessing demand will be high for this car so you won't see much by way of dealer discounts. so with a federal credit, you're looking at $30,500 as a purchase price, plus tax and license, you're at about $34,000. If you can buy a 2015 Leaf Gen 1 for $12,000 instead, that's a killer deal! Even if you wind up having to pay $5500 for a new pack in a couple years. If the price of the pack drops to $4000 or stays the same and goes to 120mi+ of range, there's a lot of incentive here.

Personally if I knew I could get the above in a replacement pack, I wouldn't sell my 2015. I'd drive it to 65% of capacity and put a new pack in.

 

[desiv]

- Nissan will be in a bad position with the used leaf market and will do one of two things to boost resale, either lower the price of replacement batteries, or increase the range of them. Either of these would boost resale tremendously.

I'm not sure Nissan cares all that much about the used Leaf market, with the exception of the ones they get back off of lease.
And as long as the newer (longer mileage) Leafs are selling well, not sure they care about those too much...
The tricky part I see is what they do about current Leaf owners who want the new Leaf and want to trade in their existing Leaf. With lower value, that could cause an issue.
Unless Nissan offers some type of Leaf trade in credit to their dealers to offset some things..

My guess is that they do nothing, or some type of minimal credit for trades...
And they just take the loss for resale of their lease Leafs...

It's also possible they will introduce a few levels of new Leaf, and if one is still a Leaf with 80-ish mile range, that helps set the resale price for the used Leafs.

desiv