Could commercial charging stations actually hurt EVs?

[cossie1600]

I was thinking that with the cost of the charging stations going higher and higher, doesn't it not make sense for people to take their car outside to charge? If that is the case, the car is basically limited to about 70 miles of use. It would make any long trips impossible as the new charging stations are charging too much.

I had to pay $5 to use a QC to get me to 80%. Fine, but 80% gets about 50-60 miles on highway, which means I am essentially paying about $2.50 for every 30 miles, which is only slightly better than a Prius with the 30 minute wait (I charged from 3% to 80% in about 27 minutes. BTW, can you charge to 90 or 100% on quick charge or would the system shut you down)

The standard rate seems to be about $1 per charge, which is reasonable. Yet I am starting to see more $2/hour charge popping up at places like Walgreens. Unless you really need the charge, it seems to not make sense to go out and use the commercial stations. What do you guys think?

Also thank you for the companies that offer it for free!!!

 

[cwerdna]

We've had this type of discussion at least once before. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=285012#p285012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was one of the responses to me wanting it to be not much more (or preferably less) than driving a Prius the same distance.

 

[RonDawg]

With QC'ing, keep in mind you are paying for a convenience; if price is such an issue, you can always go to a cheaper L2 charger, but of course that takes more time.

I'm actually not a fan of free charging. It seems to bring out the greed and laziness in people, who then take advantage and hog the chargers long after their charging is done. I would like to see a "penalty" rate in which it gets considerably more expensive if you continue to stay plugged in after your car is done, with perhaps a 1 hour grace period.

Back to QC's: I read somewhere else here on MNL that a gas station is considering putting a QC on their premises. I'm surprised they are only now thinking about doing this; it would be a great way for a gas station to make some money off an EV which they would otherwise not make, and perhaps make even more money when that EV's driver and passengers come into the convenience store to get a soda and a snack while waiting for their charge.

 

[surfingslovak]

Back to QC's: I read somewhere else here on MNL that a gas station is considering putting a QC on their premises. I'm surprised they are only now thinking about doing this; it would be a great way for a gas station to make some money off an EV which they would otherwise not make, and perhaps make even more money when that EV's driver and passengers come into the convenience store to get a soda and a snack while waiting for their charge.

This is already happening abroad, the US might be a bit behind places like Europe or Japan with regards to QC rollout. Here is Vincent of Leafplan fame getting his LEAF quick charged at a BP station near Delft (40 miles from Amsterdam). It costs about $10 for pay-as-you-go customers, but one can get a fob and enroll in some sort of a subscription plan. The attendant confirms that there were already several QC customers that day. It's worth noting that depending on location gasoline is more than twice expensive in Europe.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nyQfAJiW5k[/youtube]

 

[DaveEV]

We've had this type of discussion at least once before. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=285012#p285012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was one of the responses to me wanting it to be not much more (or preferably less) than driving a Prius the same distance.

The tl;dr; version of that post:

1. Don't forget to average your public charging costs with your cost to charge at home to get the true cost of your trip.
2. $0.30 / kWh to charge the LEAF is about the same fuel cost as driving the Prius at $4/gallon.
3. If you only bought the LEAF to get the absolute cheapest operating costs, you bought the wrong car. You should have bought a Versa or Spark. Or even better a used car.

Personally I bought a LEAF for it's zero tailpipe emissions and lowest overall emissions at an affordable price so I appreciate public charging that lets me drive the LEAF instead of the Prius. Even if the incremental cost of charging to finish a trip is double the average cost of driving the Prius, the average cost of driving the LEAF is very cheap.

 

[RonDawg]

It's worth noting that depending on location gasoline is more than twice expensive in Europe.

I wonder how much it was on the day that video was filmed? I couldn't read the sign.

When I was in the Netherlands in April 2012, petrol was €1.88 per litre in the Amsterdam area....a whopping $9.29 per U.S. gallon

 

[surfingslovak]

When I was in the Netherlands in April 2012, petrol was €1.88 per litre in the Amsterdam area....a whopping $9.29 per U.S. gallon

No kidding! I pulled up the current prices in Germany, and it looks like Super E10 is about $8 per gallon. I would think that it's the national average, but I didn't have time to verify that. I have no idea what gas might cost in Amsterdam currently. There was a time when the price ratio between Europe and the US was 4:1, but it looks like we might be catching up with them.

Click to open

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I don't know how accurate http://www.energy.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is but it says currently 1.825 euros per liter for unleaded at retail in the Netherlands, which would be ~$9.20/US gallon.

 

[RonDawg]

When I was in the Netherlands in April 2012, petrol was €1.88 per litre in the Amsterdam area....a whopping $9.29 per U.S. gallon

No kidding! I pulled up the current prices in Germany, and it looks like Super E10 is about $8 per gallon. I would think that it's the national average, but I didn't have time to verify that. I have no idea what gas might cost in Amsterdam currently. There was a time when the price ratio between Europe and the US was 4:1, but it looks like we might be catching up with them.

Click to open

My European trip in April 2012 took in Germany, The Netherlands, and Ireland. The Republic of Ireland had the least expensive petrol of my trip, about €1.60/litre IIRC. Northern Ireland was about the same as Germany, of course expressed as £ and not €.

BTW I found some pics of pump prices I took on that trip. This first one was taken at a Shell station in Germany, near the Dutch border along the A31 autobahn:

And here's one for Northern Ireland:

 

[RegGuheert]

Personally, I feel that looking at the price of gasoline or diesel fuel in order to determine what electricity to fuel an EV should cost makes very little sense. I have stated elsewhere on this forum that while the provision of a charging station at a merchant's location might incline me to do business there, charging above what I feel is reasonable may have the opposite effect.

It costs about $10 for pay-as-you-go customers, but one can get a fob and enroll in some sort of a subscription plan.

The whole "get a key fob to use our charging network" thing is another pet peeve of mine. I don't do that to purchase gasoline, so I really don't think I want to do that to purchase electricty. There are already more different charging networks around here than I think is reasonable for us to sign up for. I think we'll opt to do one of the following (in the order of preference):

1) Limit our trips to the range of our EV (currently a 2011 LEAF).
2) Use free public charging stations.
3) Use pay-as-you-go public charging stations (similar to purchasing gasoline).
4) Drive a gasoline-powered vehicle.

So, yeah, I guess I agree that the whole issue of public charging cost will have a minor effect on EV growth. That said, I do not think it will have nearly as much impact as the cost of electricity at home or the cost of battery replacements (battery TCO) will have.

 

[surfingslovak]

Right, the need for free access is recognized by many and there is something afoot in California to help further this agenda (SB 454). We won't see the membership plans and subscription cards go away entirely, unless the practice was banned. Personally, I would be fine with it, so long one can just walk up and use the station when needed.

The reason why I brought up European gas prices is simple: the QC session cost at the BP station in Delft is about $10. Relative to local gas prices, this would correspond to a $5 session charge in the US. While this clearly isn't ideal and wouldn't work for everyone, there is a market for this type of service. The station attendant in the video linked above stated that they had several customers a day.

 

[davewill]

It costs about $10 for pay-as-you-go customers, but one can get a fob and enroll in some sort of a subscription plan.

... The whole "get a key fob to use our charging network" thing is another pet peeve of mine. I don't do that to purchase gasoline, so I really don't think I want to do that to purchase electricty. ...

There is a fairly good reason why the networks are doing this. The cost of processing these small payments ($1-$5) through credit card providers gets expensive. By creating an account with a fob, they can bundle these charges into one larger charge, whether by prepaying as ChargePoint does, or by billing your card monthly as Blink does. Of course they also like creating a "captive" customer base, but I suspect they will eventually find themselves linked up into one cooperative network, so we'll be able to manage with the one or two fobs we find most useful locally.

 

[cossie1600]

Yeah it was BS I had to sit the Leaf around for three days while I wait for the chargepoint and blink card to come in even though it is free for me to charge.

As I said, I have no problem paying a little bit. I am just concerned as the price seems to be going up, which is going to be a problem for EV owners and future EV sales.

 

[surfingslovak]

As I said, I have no problem paying a little bit. I am just concerned as the price seems to be going up, which is going to be a problem for EV owners and future EV sales.

That's a fair concern and I think that we will see a lot of experiments, both in terms of pricing and in terms of limited access as these companies are fine-tuning their business models around public charging. I still remember when a local municipality attempted to charge $5 an hour for level 2 charging. The emphasis here is on 'attempted', as very few have charged there and many more have complained loudly. As it turns out, the city simply did not know how to price the service. Now it's $0.50 an hour or $0.50 a kWh, I forget which. We, as early market participants, play a vital role. Both for the OEMs and for the charging infrastructure providers as well. If you don't like how a station operator is pricing the service, let them know. If you don't like subscription models and limited access, let your minicipality and state lawmakers know.

 

[cwerdna]

Yeah it was BS I had to sit the Leaf around for three days while I wait for the chargepoint and blink card to come in even though it is free for me to charge.

My Bay Area dealer had a stack of Chargepoint and Blink cards on their desk and encouraged me to grab one each. I didn't need the Chargepoint card as I got one last year WAY before I had any BEV/PHEV. I grabbed the Blink card though.

I also got a free Chargepoint card from the receptionist at my work prior to leasing the Leaf and registered my cards, accounts and added myself to my work's private group (which requires approval by someone at work) so that I could use the free employee only Chargepoint EVSEs @ work.

 

[RegGuheert]

That's a fair concern and I think that we will see a lot of experiments, both in terms of pricing and in terms of limited access as these companies are fine-tuning their business models around public charging.

I expect that not all of the fine tuning will be done by these companies. Rather, much of the tuning is likely to be done by the marketplace in the form of bankruptcies, etc. The electric vehicle fueling business is very different from gasoline refueling and other pay-per-use services of which I can think. The capabilities of the customer vehicles are already extremely varied and are constantly changing. The biggest issue seems to be that the consumer can (usually) choose to get this service from home rather than pay for it at a public location. With most other services which we pay for we do not have a cheaper, easier solution in our homes like we do for EVs. That will be a very difficult option for vendors to compete with since they generally cannot obtain electricty during the daytime for less money than a consumer can purchase it at night. Typically, they will pay much more unless they use PV to provide the energy. They will need to figure out how to attract the customers who really need the charge and will pay enough to pay them a profit. As battery capacity and vehicle range increases, this will likely limit them to the long-distance travel and emergency (not-planned-for) situations. As a result of all this, I imagine there will be quite a few false starts along the way before some companies find business models that work in this space.

 

[FairwoodRed]

RegGuheert’s post makes me wonder when someone is going to try Time Of Day billing. I find that most of the time I am deciding if it is worth it to charge publicly, it is at night or on the weekend. My extra errands are almost exclusively on my way home or after dinner. If their rates were less during those times, I would be more likely to use them.

I use DCFC’s way more than L2 chargers because they are faster – more convenient. The price of L2 will have to be much less than DCFC because I find it so much less desirable. And because most of my extra driving is elective, I can do it on another day, or with another car. All of which contributes to my using DCFC only a couple times a month and public L2, almost never.

Every car model owner’s group has its share of cost-conscious owners. Even though cost isn’t the only reason they bought it, doesn’t mean that they are willing to overlook cost. I suspect that the LEAF has more than its share of frugal owners based on the number of Just Drive The Prius posts and I doubt that environmental arguments are going to change their mind.

 

[DaveEV]

RegGuheert’s post makes me wonder when someone is going to try Time Of Day billing.

Already done.

Evoasis Charging for DCQC from 12-15-12 at San Juan Cap

Current rates are $10/hour from 7:15pm-11am and $15/hour from 11am-7:15pm. Billed by the minute.

 

[cossie1600]

Given how much better the car is selling after the price drop, it's hard for the extremist to say cost doesn't matter. It's not the only factor, but big enough to swing a 15k car into a 25k purchase.

RegGuheert’s post makes me wonder when someone is going to try Time Of Day billing. I find that most of the time I am deciding if it is worth it to charge publicly, it is at night or on the weekend. My extra errands are almost exclusively on my way home or after dinner. If their rates were less during those times, I would be more likely to use them.

I use DCFC’s way more than L2 chargers because they are faster – more convenient. The price of L2 will have to be much less than DCFC because I find it so much less desirable. And because most of my extra driving is elective, I can do it on another day, or with another car. All of which contributes to my using DCFC only a couple times a month and public L2, almost never.

Every car model owner’s group has its share of cost-conscious owners. Even though cost isn’t the only reason they bought it, doesn’t mean that they are willing to overlook cost. I suspect that the LEAF has more than its share of frugal owners based on the number of Just Drive The Prius posts and I doubt that environmental arguments are going to change their mind.