Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DesertDenizen]

I'm game for a beer or two. I know the perfect bar too called the Roosevelt in down town Phoenix. It's central to most everyone and the Ecotality office is about 20 feet away so there are three Blink's available.

Roosevelt sounds good. Any other Phoenix drivers interested in getting together to chat about the degradation issue? Any night is good for me, so just let me know.

Beer? Did someone say beer?
Anyone in Tucson interested?

 

[azdre]

I'm game for a beer or two. I know the perfect bar too called the Roosevelt in down town Phoenix. It's central to most everyone and the Ecotality office is about 20 feet away so there are three Blink's available.

Roosevelt sounds good. Any other Phoenix drivers interested in getting together to chat about the degradation issue? Any night is good for me, so just let me know.

Tuesday? 5:30?

 

[jspearman]

I'm game for a beer or two. I know the perfect bar too called the Roosevelt in down town Phoenix. It's central to most everyone and the Ecotality office is about 20 feet away so there are three Blink's available.

Roosevelt sounds good. Any other Phoenix drivers interested in getting together to chat about the degradation issue? Any night is good for me, so just let me know.

Tuesday? 5:30?

This time would work well for me since we'll be out of town this coming weekend.

 

[KeiJidosha]

A possible solution would be to equip a Leaf with the A123 pouch cells with their new high-temp nano-phosphate chemistry.
They aren't quite as dense, but apparently will not suffer the same degradation.

the Toshiba SCiB cells are also supposed to be high temperature tolerant.

It seems the capacity loss issue is avoidable.
Toshiba SCiB Battery Brochure

 

[azdre]

This time would work well for me since we'll be out of town this coming weekend.

Shoot, I forgot I've got to be in North Scottsdale (are we supposed to call it NoSco now?) at 7pm on Tuesday. Wednesday 5:30?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A possible solution would be to equip a Leaf with the A123 pouch cells with their new high-temp nano-phosphate chemistry.
They aren't quite as dense, but apparently will not suffer the same degradation.

the Toshiba SCiB cells are also supposed to be high temperature tolerant.

It seems the capacity loss issue is avoidable.
Toshiba SCiB Battery Brochure

batteries available in 2011, so where are they?

 

[KeiJidosha]

...batteries available in 2011, so where are they?

they are here

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

...batteries available in 2011, so where are they?

they are here

looks promising but the batteries were tested in temps to 50ºC well that is 122º F which i think is well beyond what AZ is seeing.

will be interesting to see how they fare but will be kinda tough when you will have what?? 2-3,000 Fits over the next 3 years ,most in pastel climates.

 

[cwerdna]

the Toshiba SCiB cells are also supposed to be high temperature tolerant.

It seems the capacity loss issue is avoidable.
Toshiba SCiB Battery Brochure

batteries available in 2011, so where are they?

An i-Miev owner stated that's what his car uses. It seems confirmed by articles like http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/21/mitsubishi-selects-toshiba-scib-battery-to-power-i-miev-minicab/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2012/07/2012-mitsubishi-i-miev-may-and-june-fuel-economy-update.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; muddies the waters though.

 

[Christopher]

I don't see any conflict between what I posted and what you posted.

30-80% is charging 50% of the capacity range, 2 of those equal one cycle.

Maybe my syntax wasn't clear.

I was also initially surprised at what you wrote and was going to correct you until I realized what I had missed. It was too easy to overlook your initial numbers as a numbered list.

Let me help:
One 0-100% charge counts as one charging cycle.
Two 30-80% charges count as one charging cycle.
Five 60-80% charges count as one charging cycle.

(And for what it's worth, in English writing, it's considered proper to spell out single digit numbers in sentences.)

 

[leafkabob]

This time would work well for me since we'll be out of town this coming weekend.

Shoot, I forgot I've got to be in North Scottsdale (are we supposed to call it NoSco now?) at 7pm on Tuesday. Wednesday 5:30?

Wednesday at 5:30 would work for me.

 

[TomT]

What does the GM Volt warranty say about warrantying battery capacity loss, if anything? The battery warranty for any electric vehicle is pretty much worthless without a capacity warranty... All they are really warrantying without one is a total catastrophic failure...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

(And for what it's worth, in English writing, it's considered proper to spell out single digit numbers in sentences.)

and that will probably always be the case for the written language, but in communication which is ever changing i think we can say that this is no longer the rule. unfortunately, text messaging rules

 

[jspearman]

This time would work well for me since we'll be out of town this coming weekend.

Shoot, I forgot I've got to be in North Scottsdale (are we supposed to call it NoSco now?) at 7pm on Tuesday. Wednesday 5:30?

I'm good with Wednesday at 5:30, as is Leafkabob, so I'll see you folks there, as well as any other Leafy types who can make it. I'll post this on the Phoenix thread, too.

 

[dhanson865]

(And for what it's worth, in English writing, it's considered proper to spell out single digit numbers in sentences.)

and that will probably always be the case for the written language, but in communication which is ever changing i think we can say that this is no longer the rule. unfortunately, text messaging rules

myself I would fix it by adding a x or * to show multiplication as in

1x 0-100% charge counts as 1 charging cycle.
2x 30-80% charges count as 1 charging cycle. (50% gained per charging session)
5x 60-80% charges count as 1 charging cycle. (20% gained per charging session)


or

1 x 0-100% charge counts as 1 charging cycle.
2 x 30-80% charges count as 1 charging cycle.
5 x 60-80% charges count as 1 charging cycle.

depending on your style preference for spacing. Maybe even go as far as remove more words for another symbol

1 x 0-100% charge = 1 charging cycle.
2 x 30-80% charges = 1 charging cycle. (50% gained per charging session)
5 x 60-80% charges = 1 charging cycle. (20% gained per charging session)

I considered using ~= to address the possibility that 2 x 50% charge cycles are less damaging than 1 x 100% charge cycle but some aren't familiar with ~= meaning approximately equal.

If you make the sentence more math like then the english language style guide gets overridden by the math languague style guide.

 

[planet4ever]

yup. Nissan made a big deal in the roll out of asking those who reserved what length warranty would fit their expectations and make the deal.
now, it turns out the 8-year warranty is full of weasel words.
sad turn of events.

Look, it's not nice to say, "I told you so," and I really do feel for the folks having problems, but this is not a case of, "now, it turns out," or "sad turn of events." Go back and read this thread from more than a year ago: Battery warranty

You will see that a number of us were pointing out the obvious, and others were just sticking their heads in the sand.

Ray

 

[TomT]

OK, one more for the list in the Phoenix area. My friend Tim, who is not on this forum, lost a capacity tick yesterday. He got his car in August of 2011.

 

[abasile]

I considered using ~= to address the possibility that 2 x 50% charge cycles are less damaging than 1 x 100% charge cycle but some aren't familiar with ~= meaning approximately equal.

Doing 100% cycles all the time, i.e., charging to 100% and discharging to "turtle", is a great way to lose capacity. Just ask Tony Williams; his first LEAF (in temperate San Diego) was turtled repeatedly and is nearing a bar of capacity loss. You really can't equate shallow cycles with deep cycles as some of the above posts seem to imply. My impression is that you could do a fairly significant number of 50% cycles and still cause less degradation than a full, 100% cycle.

 

[Cheezmo]

What does the GM Volt warranty say about warrantying battery capacity loss, if anything? The battery warranty for any electric vehicle is pretty much worthless without a capacity warranty... All they are really warrantying without one is a total catastrophic failure...

It is 8 years/100k miles.

They have a statement that 10-30% loss is normal in that 8 year time period.

So presumably anything over 30% would be covered but I haven't found that definitively.

Supposedly since they only use something like the 30-80% charge range of the battery, they can free up some additional capacity over time to keep the same capacity.

Others may know more but that is my general understanding.

 

[Volusiano]

OK, one more for the list in the Phoenix area. My friend Tim, who is not on this forum, lost a capacity tick yesterday. He got his car in August of 2011.

1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/10/2012)
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix (sold that Leaf, replaced w/leased '12 Leaf)
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix
20. Leafwing - July 05, 2012, 13.5K/15 months, Plano, TX.
21. GerryAZ - July 05, 2012, ?/?, Phoenix
22. ecoobsessive - July 6, 2012, 13K/13 months, San Antonio, TX
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012)
24. DarkDave - June 15, 2012. 8.5K/14.5 months. Phoenix
25. JasonT - July 14, 2012, 25.5K/15 months, Tuscon, AZ

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum reported on another Phoenix car: Lost 1st bar @ 21.5K/ __ months. Lost 2nd bar 6/30/2012 @ 25.3K after 12 mos ownership. Lost 3rd bar 7/12/2012 @ 29.1K miles (from
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=990#p210171and viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=1210#p212356and viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=1230#p212377
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix (supposedly no longer has Leaf)
4. TomT's friend Tim (not on the forum), in Phoenix, lost 1st bar on 7/15/2012, at 13K miles/11 months (had car since August 2011).