California air board to vote on landmark electric-car rules

[GRA]

The news article doesn't mention if natural gas vehicles are included as part of this low emission.

Well, let's see, now. When natural gas burns it produces CO2, just like any other fossil fuel. And natural gas itself is far more "effective" as a greenhouse gas than even CO2 is, so any leaks, or loss during transfer ...

Ray

OTOH, at the moment the only cost-effective way to produce hydrogen is from natural gas, so . . .

And NG is the lowest GHG-producing hydrocarbon when combusted, and we have lots of it here (subject to possible restrictions on fracking).

 

[planet4ever]

Well, let's see, now. When natural gas burns it produces CO2, just like any other fossil fuel. And natural gas itself is far more "effective" as a greenhouse gas than even CO2 is, so any leaks, or loss during transfer ...

OTOH, at the moment the only cost-effective way to produce hydrogen is from natural gas, so . . .

Precisely why I am very leery of the rosy future CARB paints for fuel cells. Perhaps someone will invent a highly efficient alternative using electrolysis, but I'm not holding my breath. By the time you manage to produce the hydrogen and then squeeze enough of it to be useful into a car's fuel tank you have used a lot of energy, in one form or another.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Spending money to coax carbon out of its safe storage underground and spew it into the atmosphere is our society's ultimate idiocy. Our grandchildren will pay more dearly than we can imagine for our selfish stupidity.

Ray

 

[Nekota]

The news article doesn't mention if natural gas vehicles are included as part of this low emission.

Well, let's see, now. When natural gas burns it produces CO2, just like any other fossil fuel. And natural gas itself is far more "effective" as a greenhouse gas than even CO2 is, so any leaks, or loss during transfer ...

Ray

CARB is after smog more than CO2 and CNG is often promoted as a cleaner burning fuel.

In addition to the goals for zero-emission automobiles, the new CARB rules rein in emissions from conventional cars. By 2025, smog-producing pollutants must be cut by 75 percent and greenhouse-gas emissions by 50 percent compared with today's levels.

The 15% zero emission or near zero emission implies electric and hydrogen but the smog reduction could come from increased fuel efficiency or cleaner burning fuels. Seems like a loophole could develop.

 

[planet4ever]

CARB is after smog more than CO2 and CNG is often promoted as a cleaner burning fuel.

CARB used to be all about smog. They are now very much involved in "greenhouse gas pollutants" as well as smog. Their current zero emissions focus is not about smog.

Ray

 

[lkkms2]

In the San Diego Union newspaper article on the new rules it states,

"Access to Hydrogen
The program will require oil companies to be responsible for installing hydrogen access points at select locations once a predetermined number of fuel cell vehicles are on the road.
.....
Missing from the mandate are any requirements that service stations offer quick-charger stops for electric vehicles. The cost and projected low demand combined to shelve this idea, officials said.
Those commuter cars are usually recharged at home or work."

Hmm.....

 

[linkim]

"Access to Hydrogen
The program will require oil companies to be responsible for installing hydrogen access points at select locations once a predetermined number of fuel cell vehicles are on the road.

Is there any hint of what the number of fuel cell vehicles (FCV) will trigger the installation of hydrogen refueling stations? I suspect that the rollout of FCVs will be slow because I can't imagine them being very low cost (i.e., much more costly than EVs). If educating the public about EVs is a challenge, try selling them the idea of a FCV, so initially fleet applications make more sense.

Just my opinion.

 

[walterbays]

The program will require oil companies to be responsible for installing hydrogen access points at select locations once a predetermined number of fuel cell vehicles are on the road.

With thousands of EVs on the road and a quick charging station costing $10,000, California has managed in one year to get... ZERO quick charging stations in daily operation. There's the M-F business hours site thanks to the generosity of Mitsubishi. There's the Vacaville site eternally mired in red tape. There's the 7-11 seemingly on the verge of opening. There are lots and lots of promises and predictions and press releases. Nothing you can use to fill up on a weekend though. Good thing EVs can use L2 and L1 charging which is widely deployed publicly and universally deployed at private homes.

So for potentially dozens of hydrogen fuel cell cars, how long might it take to deploy a complete public fueling infrastructure? That infrastructure will need to be built before the public will buy more than a token number of vehicles because you can't just plug into any hydrogen outlet in the house. Each fueling station will cost not $10,000 but between $1 and $4 million. The total fueling infrastructure is estimated to cost over $500 billion. Hydrogen advocates note that price is low compared to the price of oil wars, but it is certainly more than the price of an EV quick charging infrastructure.

http://pubs.its.ucdavis.edu/download_pdf.php?id=139
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/224.pdf
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog...ture/cost-of-hydrogen-fueling-infrastructure/

 

[garygid]

Pushing for Hydrogen fuel (except from H20) is just another ploy to spend billions perpetuating the use of gas/oil type products (IMO).

 

[smkettner]

How safe are those hydrogen transport trucks? Gasoline transportation seems risky enough. Electric is a non-issue.

 

[hill]

The news article doesn't mention if natural gas vehicles are included as part of this low emission.

Well, let's see, now. When natural gas burns it produces CO2, just like any other fossil fuel. And natural gas itself is far more "effective" as a greenhouse gas than even CO2 is, so any leaks, or loss during transfer ... . . . . . . . . . snip

It is already being shown that NG from shale (fracking) is more foul than coal.

http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=2042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

. . . . . but ignorance is bliss. If there's little smog from the tail pipe ... then it must be good, right? Does it matter than the ground watter at the dill site contaminates with carcinogins that go into watering our food? ... the food that we eat? ... and/or to feed to animals we eat? You got a problem with that?

.

 

[Nubo]

... By the time you manage to produce the hydrogen and then squeeze enough of it to be useful into a car's fuel tank you have used a lot of energy, in one form or another.,,

Absolutely. The one aspect of H2 that does shine, however, is the permanency of energy storage. Put a kWH into a storage battery, and after one month you will have ??? watt-hours. After one year you will have....? At some point the inefficiency of conversion is made up for by being able to store the energy without loss for long periods. It still doesn't make sense to me to pipe it into cars, but it would seem to have some eventual role in load-levelling for alternative energy systems, strategic energy reserves, and perhaps geographical energy transport.

 

[ENIAC]

... By the time you manage to produce the hydrogen and then squeeze enough of it to be useful into a car's fuel tank you have used a lot of energy, in one form or another.,,

Absolutely. The one aspect of H2 that does shine, however, is the permanency of energy storage. Put a kWH into a storage battery, and after one month you will have ??? watt-hours. After one year you will have....? At some point the inefficiency of conversion is made up for by being able to store the energy without loss for long periods. It still doesn't make sense to me to pipe it into cars, but it would seem to have some eventual role in load-levelling for alternative energy systems, strategic energy reserves, and perhaps geographical energy transport.

Compressed hydrogen will evaporate from its storage vessel over time.

 

[spacysmoke]

My local news did a story about this last week and featured a Leaf owner in San Jose:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahL6VJio3U[/youtube]

 

[Ready2plugin]

My local news did a story about this last week and featured a Leaf owner in San Jose:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahL6VJio3U[/youtube]

Where can I get the green LEAF they have in the opening logo ?

 

[Nekota]

... By the time you manage to produce the hydrogen and then squeeze enough of it to be useful into a car's fuel tank you have used a lot of energy, in one form or another.,,

Absolutely. The one aspect of H2 that does shine, however, is the permanency of energy storage. Put a kWH into a storage battery, and after one month you will have ??? watt-hours. After one year you will have....? At some point the inefficiency of conversion is made up for by being able to store the energy without loss for long periods. It still doesn't make sense to me to pipe it into cars, but it would seem to have some eventual role in load-levelling for alternative energy systems, strategic energy reserves, and perhaps geographical energy transport.

Compressed hydrogen will evaporate from its storage vessel over time.

I would agree that liquid hydrogen will evaporate but compressed hydrogen at room temperature should store for many years.

 

[garygid]

I believe that the CPUC already made a rule (for CA) that
one can sell electricity for e-fuel WITHOUT being a PU.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I believe that the CPUC already made a rule (for CA) that
one can sell electricity for e-fuel WITHOUT being a PU.

http://www.plugincars.com/how-much-will-it-cost-charge-your-electric-car-public-106551.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PUC opened a rulemaking (R-09-08-009) to consider
infrastructure, rates, and policies to support EVs. The
rulemaking also addressed the requirements of SB 626 (Kehoe)
Chapter 355, Statutes of 2009, which requires the PUC, in
consultation with the CEC, the Air Resources Board, electrical
corporations, and the motor vehicle industry, to evaluate
policies to develop infrastructure sufficient to overcome any
barriers to the widespread deployment and use of PHEVs. SB 626
requires the PUC to adopt rules by July 1, 2011.

On July 29, 2010, the PUC issued a decision on Phase I of the
rulemaking. The PUC ruled that the ownership or operation of a
facility that sells electricity at retail to the public for use
only as a motor vehicle fuel does not make the corporation or
person a "public utility" within the meaning of the Public
Utilities Code.

 

[garygid]

And, not being a PU, you are not regulated by the CPUC.

However, it does not say that any PU has to sell you the e-fuel at any reasonable price!

So, the PUs are still "free" to squash competition.