Auto Show Los Angeles 2012

[Kataphn]

Heading there today so I thought I would start a thread for any posting by forum attendees on impressions, likes/dislikes.

 

[mwalsh]

I'm already posting some in threads already established for the various models being discussed on an ongoing basis.

Impression when it comes to EVs...after a very EV positive LAAS two years ago, and a pretty depressing one last year, the overwhelming impression from this year is that we're back on track. Press enthusiasm for the Fiat 500E, the Spark EV, and the BMW i concepts appeared strong and very genuine.

Noticed the absence of Rolls Royce this year, and thought "WTF?" The US is second only to China for Rolls Royce sales. And LA is the premier market for Rolls Royce in the US.

The LAAS promised the Fiat 500E on the Green Car Ride-n-Drive this year, and it wasn't available. Bummer. On the plus side, the Fisker Karma was!

Parking has gone up $3 from $12 to $15.

Both J1172 cables on the chargers in the West parking lot have been stolen, rending the chargers disabled.

Enjoyed seeing the James Bond DB5 in the Concourse room. But like all movie cars, there is stuff you notice up close that you would never see on the movie screen and that certainly wouldn't stand for on a "restored" classic car. Or at least I wouldn't (quality of chrome on the front bumper, for example).

 

[rumpole]

Photos people, photos! Especially of the ev's

Also, any indication of DC L3 charging of the Chevy Spark? The LA Times had a picture of the Spark's charge port:

 

[mwalsh]

Photos people, photos! Especially of the ev's

Also, any indication of DC L3 charging of the Chevy Spark? The LA Times had a picture of the Spark's charge port:

That two-pin, sausage-like shaped part of the port, below the standard round J1772 connection...that's for DCQC.

 

[surfingslovak]

 

[rumpole]

Photos people, photos! Especially of the ev's

Also, any indication of DC L3 charging of the Chevy Spark? The LA Times had a picture of the Spark's charge port:

That two-pin, sausage-like shaped part of the port, below the standard round J1772 connection...that's for DCQC.

I know, what I meant was the charger itself. I wanted to know if there were any DCQC charger sightings. Does the LAAS have a "green car" section?

 

[Kataphn]

My impressions...lots of use of this orangey/copper color as shown in pics in this thread. I think every maker had cars that color. Also lots of neon colors. Did not see dc charging station though Mitsubishi had one last year in its exhibit area. Spark was very small. Ice version of Spark has integrated roof rack. Not on EV version. I did ok in driver seat but back was impossible (I am 6-3). Many makers touting use of cars for sports with paddle boards, snowboards, bikes, etc. up on racks. Loved the made for the car bike trunk rack on Smart car. Many makers seem to have a crossover/small SUV plug in hybrid in the works but none out yet. I am surprised that makers like Toyota have EV RAV 4 and ICE version but no plug in hybrid version. Came away thinking our household is just fine with LEAF and recent plug in Prius purchase. Was great to see boomer23 and keijidosha. I took light rail. That worked out fine.

 

[Boomer23]

I walked the show with Keijidosha today and found it much improved from an EV standpoint compared with last year's major disappointment. It was great fun to literally bump into Kataphn at the Spark exhibit, then also bumped into an old friend and former co-worker who I found out is also driving a LEAF, and another friend from EVAOSC.

A good percentage of the mfrs had something that plugs in on display. As per usual, all of the really new EV stuff was behind barriers and not available to touch. This includes the Fiat 500 EV, Chevy Spark EV, and BMW i3 Coupe Concept. At least the Fiat and Spark had ICE versions readily available for easy comparison. I found the Fiat exciting to look at and definitely worth following its progress toward production. The colors, wheels and design details are quite compelling. Matt noticed that the underbodies were unfinished, and a Fiat rep confirmed that these were pre-production examples. They looked very "pre".

The Spark disappoints me in its 3.3 kW charger, but the reported 400 lbft of torque surely sounds exciting. Will Chevy bring that much torque to the car at production release, or will they tune it down for durability? I found the interior of the ICE version to consist of very light weight and cheap-feeling plastics, but the design details were mostly pleasing. In fitting the 3.3 kW charger, Chevy must have been thinking that the SAE combo DC charging option makes a faster L2 charger less needed. I disagree. L2 is going to be much more widely available than DCQC, and it will take some time before the first SAE combo chargers appear.

Interior space in both of these cars is on the very small side, but at least the Spark has four doors. If you're familiar with the iMiev, you're in that size range.

I find the BMW i Coupe Concept very encouraging, since it shows us what a production i3 may look like far more realistically than the glass doored concepts have shown up to now. I find the car quite attractive in its metallic copper skin. Though some of the traditional BMW fans have complained about the boxiness of the car, I think that it makes for a very attractive EV.

Random comments on other EVs:
• RAV4 EV is on display and available to sit in. There's also a cut-away version to see.
• The 2013 RAV4 ICE is also on display (looks a lot like the EV, but has a lift UP rear door. Caution- the 2012 RAV is also on the floor, so don't be confused.
• Mitsubishi has the new Outlander on display (locked, I think). This will be the basis of the 2014 PHEV coming next year.
• Honda Fit EV is on the floor and as I recall, available to sit in.
• I enjoyed seeing the Volt chassis "skateboard" , which looks fairly simple, though there's a ton of engineering under that apparent simplicity.
• as Kataphn mentioned, the Smart EV is shown with a well integrated bike rack on the rear bumper
• Ford has the C-MAX Energi available to sit in and the Fusion Energi on display, locked. The Focus EV is also open to play in. I like the C-MAX Energi and will consider it as a future Prius replacement , despite its awkward luggage area intrusion by the battery pack. I also want to see real-world MPG numbers.
• I love the little Honda EV-Ster sports EV concept. Hope Honda will really build something like this.
• Nissan at least has a LEAF on display to sit in, with a large (though back in the rear) display area dedicated to it
• Infiniti is showing the LE Concept EV with the doors open these days, and it looks super-inviting. But they really need a real-world 150 miles to compete in the luxury segment, and battery chemistry and TMS improvements if they want to attract my dollars

I'll post some pics over the weekend

 

[Boomer23]

Pics as promised:

The orange coupe is, of course, the BMW i3 Coupe Concept, and the silver spyder is the i8 concept.

The small white open spyder is the Honda EV-ster Concept.

The silver sedan with the doors open is the Infiniti LE Concept.

The two little coupes in orange and grey are the Fiat 500 EV.

The grey SUV is the new Mitsubishi Outlander, which will offer a plug in hybrid version some time in 2013.

The white Ford is the C-Max Energi PHEV

The little blue sedan is the Chevy Spark EV

http://www.flickr.com/photos/71336612@N00/sets/72157632147328925" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

not sure i can agree with charge ports opening from the side. i like the rain protection (what little it is is still better than nothing!) on the LEAF's flip up hatch.

the BMW turn signal (on right hand side of steering column) is that all it does? it seems a bit "cumbersome"

***edit*** oh I C, its a shifter. on the steering wheel...

i dont like that. I think of all the times i have engaged turn signal, windshield wipers, etc. by accident (i have 3 thumbs on each hand so not "completely" helpless...)

 

[evnow]

Infiniti is showing the LE Concept EV with the doors open these days, and it looks super-inviting. But they really need a real-world 150 miles to compete in the luxury segment, and battery chemistry and TMS improvements if they want to attract my dollars

So i3 can't compete in the luxury segment ?

 

[surfingslovak]

Infiniti is showing the LE Concept EV with the doors open these days, and it looks super-inviting. But they really need a real-world 150 miles to compete in the luxury segment, and battery chemistry and TMS improvements if they want to attract my dollars

So i3 can't compete in the luxury segment ?

I believe that he meant to say that the Infinity will have to contend with the base Model S, and the i3 will the fully the loaded Leaf or a Volt as competitors, assuming comparable pricing for these vehicles.

 

[Boomer23]

Infiniti is showing the LE Concept EV with the doors open these days, and it looks super-inviting. But they really need a real-world 150 miles to compete in the luxury segment, and battery chemistry and TMS improvements if they want to attract my dollars

So i3 can't compete in the luxury segment ?

Good point and well worth my while to explore that question for myself. One answer is that the i3 will offer an optional range extender that will cover that range. But considered more fundamentally, I see the i3 as a quick, light, agile and efficient offering, so it attracts me based on those attributes, while I see the Infiniti as a luxed-up version of the LEAF, and if it only offers the current LEAF battery pack, with slight but not fundamental improvements to chemistry and temp control, the package doesn't attract me as much as the BMW does. I must admit that I started losing interest in the Infniti when the LEAFs started losing driving range at such early ages last summer. Quoting the exact same pack size as the LEAF's, and with Nissan not revealing anything substantive about new battery technology, I lost enthusiasm for the LE.

Another thing that makes me think that the LE needs more range is that it seems like a natural competitor for the Tesla S 40 kWh entry level model. My guess is that the price point will likely be within $10k of the Tesla, and Nissan will have quite a job selling LEs against the Tesla without a comparable driving range.

Another thought is that the Infiniti looks like "too much car" and too much money to be a short range runabout, which is what I think the LEAF is. To sell well, I think it needs improved range because the Infiniti buyer is not going to shell out big bucks for a short range runabout.

I told an Infiniti rep at the show that the company also needs to provide DCQC stations at strategically placed dealerships to compete in that luxury arena against Tesla. Luxury buyers and women especially are going to want the reassurance and convenience of quick charging, and drivers wanting to cover longer distances will want that network of QCs, just as Tesla buyers are attracted by their Superchargers. There's a nice Infiniti selling point against the Tesla, DCQC standard at that price point, but not available on the 40kWh Tesla.

 

[Boomer23]

Infiniti is showing the LE Concept EV with the doors open these days, and it looks super-inviting. But they really need a real-world 150 miles to compete in the luxury segment, and battery chemistry and TMS improvements if they want to attract my dollars

So i3 can't compete in the luxury segment ?

I believe that he meant to say that the Infinity will have to contend with the base Model S, and the i3 will the fully the loaded Leaf or a Volt as competitors, assuming comparable pricing for these vehicles.

That's right, George, we were cross-posting, but I could have said it much more concisely, as you have.

 

[GRA]

<snip>

The Spark disappoints me in its 3.3 kW charger, but the reported 400 lbft of torque surely sounds exciting. Will Chevy bring that much torque to the car at production release, or will they tune it down for durability? I found the interior of the ICE version to consist of very light weight and cheap-feeling plastics, but the design details were mostly pleasing. In fitting the 3.3 kW charger, Chevy must have been thinking that the SAE combo DC charging option makes a faster L2 charger less needed. I disagree. L2 is going to be much more widely available than DCQC, and it will take some time before the first SAE combo chargers appear.

I agree with you about the need for a 6.6kW charger, but I suspect the primary reason GM used it was because it's the same one used in the Volt, keeping costs down. It undoubtedly makes sense from the standpoint of GM bean-counters, but at least in the short-medium term it will, as you state, limit the car's utility in areas without SAE QC networks. 3.3 is adequate for overnight charging, but not for away from home or spontaneous charging.

Re the torque, I would think GM would limit the launch torque or do something with the accelerator pedal mapping, because otherwise people will constantly be smoking their tires without meaning to.

 

[evnow]

But considered more fundamentally, I see the i3 as a quick, light, agile and efficient offering, so it attracts me based on those attributes, while I see the Infiniti as a luxed-up version of the LEAF, and if it only offers the current LEAF battery pack, with slight but not fundamental improvements to chemistry and temp control, the package doesn't attract me as much as the BMW does. I must admit that I started losing interest in the Infniti when the LEAFs started losing driving range at such early ages last summer. Quoting the exact same pack size as the LEAF's, and with Nissan not revealing anything substantive about new battery technology, I lost enthusiasm for the LE.

I think i3 & LE are probably direct competitors with about the same price. S is a competitor in the sense, if LE & i3 approach the price of S, they are probably going to lose to it.

i3 with RE is interesting. We could potentially get that as our "long distance" car for my wife and get LE for me.