Any V2G or V2H charger available yet for US?

[KeithBriggs]

diysolarforum is a wealth of info!

I'm no expert. I've just done two installs and only dealt with one manufacturer since it was what I picked based on the electric companies' approved grid tied inverters. Both yours and mine usually make the list of top inverters. If wallbox is V2G then there is considerable redundancy with a grid tied inverter. Why it's $4k. My 8k radians were $4 to 5k. My 800 aH batteries were just $9000 shipped from china. That's 40kwh (32 usable) which is pretty similar to my S LEAF's capacity.

When I easily can add my LEAF to my system as an additional 40kwh, I'll use the car as a secondary battery source and ditch the grid completely. Its only $26 per month but in 10 years that's $3120. It's my current backup as I don't have a generator.

I still don't understand why you cant use a charge controller to drop the voltage (in my case) to 48v and be a viable DC source. But I trust midnite's engineer. It appears that you need to bring it out of the car back to 240v AC and use the AC to run the house and/or charge the PV batteries and/or sell to the grid if you've jumped thru all their hoops. I'm not selling. Not worth the hassle. I followed all the rules, codes and guidelines.

Japanese grid tied inverters are already doing exactly what solaredge is striving for. Should not be a challenge as it already exists.

If the wallbox can do V2G, then it can do V2H. In my book, V2H is a subset of V2G.

 

[Marktm]

Option 2) Pay my installer some premium (hopefully no more than a few hundred dollars) to get the the SolarEdge Energy Hub inverter model SE7600H-US (reference https://www.solaredge.com/us/the-solaredge-energy-hub-solution) and next year wait for the firmware update so that I can purchase the Solaredge EV charger (https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/ev-chargers/smart-ev-charger#/ for around $750 or so) to be bi-directional by that time and fully integrated with the Solaredge SE7600H-US.

Curro;
A few issues related to option 2 that likely only SolarEdge technical support people can answer:
1. If SolarEdge does offer bidirectional energy flow via the CHAdeMO/CCS port in the future (V2X), will they still require the LG battery to allow home backup energy when the grid goes down - or will the EV battery be able to "substitute" for their home battery - during an grid outage?
2. Since the SolarEdge EV "charger" is basically a (smart) charge controller, any bidirectionality via the J-1772 port will require a bidirectional on-board charger. Not sure any EV is offering or plans on offering such an onboard charger. SolarEdge should be able to explain the functionality limits of their "EV charger" - especially during a grid outage.
3. I believe the Quasar bidirectional charger is a grid tied unit and will not function at all if the grid goes down (as is the SolarEdge SE10000H-US). If SolarEdge SE7600H-US can somehow "fool" the Quasar charger into thinking the grid is still up, could it then be used to power the home during an outage? Not sure SolarEdge will go down that path, but would be a good discussion!

Please do keep me informed as I have a similar goal in mind - again, it seems dcbel is the only company that currently claims to have V2X capabilities with "backup" home energy if the grid goes down.

 

[KeithBriggs]

If your system has batteries, I suspect it will run just fine when the grid is down. I was pleasantly surprised when I pulled the grid disconnect to the house on my first install and the lights in the house stayed on. Realized that outback wont try to connect to the grid 1. charge the batteries or 2. run as backup when the batteries are drained or 3. sell power when you hit your battery sell voltage. That's the inverter anti-islanding features.

Grid voltage and frequency is always on my dashboard screen. BTW, its amazing how the grid voltage fluctuates. Its a nice side benefit to have pure sign wave for all the electronics while inverting.

I think the worst case scenario is a manual double throw (grid / car) after you get any bi-directional charger connected to your inverter.

 

[Marktm]

I think the worst case scenario is a manual double throw (grid / car) after you get any bi-directional charger connected to your inverter.

Keith;
Curious - will Outback allow the Quasar unit (or equivalent "grid" unit) to be used as an (AC?) input and guarantee that all code and safety protocols will be followed? Again, I'm very interested as my guess is that dcbel (my only choice at this time) will be problematic to obtain in a reasonable time frame AND at a reasonable cost. BTW, I considered the Radian system for my two solar systems almost 7 years ago - but went the "cheap" route of grid tied inverters - no regrets as the electrical provider has been extremely reliable.

 

[KeithBriggs]

Hi Mark,
Outback allows 2 ac inputs. Typically Grid and Generator. Switchable as to which kicks in first. The Gen option allows both AC or DC generator. Remember, outback requires batteries grid-tied or off-grid. If you were running off-grid, I'd just put the bi-directional charger on either leads. If grid-tied, the car would be on the generator side.

THAT SAID, I called tech support and they said that they are having nothing but trouble with biderectional chargers. They are swamped trying to create battery specs for all the lithium coming out. That's a tech support person speaking and not an outback engineer.

They are doing it Japan its not a mater of "if" but "when" everywhere else. My guess is Musk will be first for an all-in-one solution. He said that he doesn't do reverse charging but after a tear down of a 3, they found it does have the functionality and 3 redundant circuits to boot. Amazing that they have redundancy for a non-admitted non-essential feature! Then again, maybe down the road it will be essential.

 

[Marktm]

Keith;
Interesting that Outback is having to deal with bidirectional charger issues. Wonder what are the details? I can sure understand that they are having issues with DC coupled batteries of different chemistries - everyone is in that game it seems.

The big advantage of dcbel to me is that the V2X is DC coupled and should allow reasonable software control of different usage modes - and hopefully allow energy arbitrage when hooked up in addition to home "blackout" as they call it.

Sure exciting times for EV based nano-grids - waiting to see Fords "Pro" application and if GM Hummer has any realistic V2X functionality (with 150 kWh+ batteries :mrgreen: )

 

[curro]

Ok, I have been off this thread some time so I wanted to give an update. After some back and forth I decided to go with the originally proposed Solaredge inverter model SE10000H-US. My installer says that the hardware is already being beta testing in California for V2H and V2G with new firmware. Eventually this will be available nationwide or in various regions in phases.

I might have to wait a year or perhaps a little bit longer. Not in a hurry to buy an EV so I am ok waiting. Since I am not interested in V2G it is a matter of a technological solution for V2H and not legislation which will probably take longer, specially in Texas and other states not necessarily friendly to V2G (for various reasons).

I hope to have the new PV system installed and running by December time frame. The city has approved it and now is the turn of the HOA.

 

[KeithBriggs]

That sounds good. I fired up my CO system on my birthday (8/31) with the first string of 4 wired up. It took a couple more weeks to get all 24 panels installed (6 strings, no micro inverters). The rest of the batteries didn't arrive until 10/6 and I installed them on 10/6. Have only generated 926 kwh's only competed it 6 weeks ago. I'm only generating about 16kwh per day now. I generated 30kwh on 9/15; the sun is changing fast. Here in Evergreen, CO I'm still going to loose another 10 degrees of sun altitude and 90 minutes of daylight before the solstice. In the winter the primary value of the solar is the backup feature which is invaluable. Summers are when it will pay for itself.

It seems too good to be true to be able to run your house with your LEAF at night, then (in my case) drive to work for free and charge for free while you are at work and do it all over again when you get home.

 

[Marktm]

Keith, curro;

Some interesting information about Lucid Motor's implementation of V2X capabilities via the J-1772 connection - taking advantage of it's bidirectional capabilities. Not for everyone ($$$s), but probably a more realistic approach to getting V2X to the masses. It would be interesting to know the cost differential in adding the bidirectional capabilities to on-board chargers.

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=23094&start=60 (last few posts)

When Lucid figures out how to safely add autotransfer from grid to home backup (their claim) - this should get very interesting! The only left "missing link" will be how to make it work with existing solar systems to keep them on-line with most being grid tied.

 

[curro]

Thanks for sharing the link Marktm.

Yes the more EVs get into the game of V2H the better.

Another question for the forum readers/writers here: is there anything different in terms of the bi-conditionality support (hardware/support) in the Nissan Leaf vehicle itself for the US vehicles vs the rest of the world, or specifically in Japan, Uk, Germany and other parts where they have already been using the Leafs for V2X?

My own research says no but I wanted to double check here.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I have seen V2G trials in the US in Colorado and on the east coast. I believe they have been small trials though.

 

[curro]

So from my gathering of information Nissan Leafs are bi-directional ready and if one would have the right hardware set up (as per discussion in this thread is only in beta testing in places like California with something like https://www.dcbel.energy/our-products/) then you would be able to get the electrons flowing out of the Leaf to, let say, a DC to AC inverter and then to feed your house electricity.

 

[Marktm]

curro

My actual experience with Nissans take on V2X is documented in both the manual itself and the ridiculous discussion with the representative
https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=32453

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Canada trials starting....with the Leaf

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/10/canadian-electric-vehicle-to-grid-project-uses-blockchain/amp/

 

[RNeil]

Ford is advertising V2H on US TV. I'm sure it's not CHAdeMO. But it is interesting.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Lightning has an onboard inverter, so you can run your home appliances off of the car. Not sure how they are suggesting the hook up to run the whole house.

It's ccs, not Chademo.

 

[Marktm]

Ford's current description of their "Pro Power". 9.6 kW is certainly a substantial home power capability. Be interesting if the "240 VAC outlet" is a NEMA 14-50r or a L6-50r - or maybe the 30 amp varieties? Will make the difference in "home" backup capabilities using a conventional transfer switch.

"Pro Power Onboard is a built-in AC power source that comes standard with 2.4 kilowatts of capability through four outlets in the Mega Power Frunk, two more in the cabin and two in the bed. Available 9.6-kilowatt Pro Power Onboard – with enough power to rip up to 30 miles of half-inch plywood on a single charge on the extended-range battery – adds two more 120V and a 240-volt AC outlet in the bed. Both versions automatically adjust the truck’s battery range estimates as power is used. Fleet managers can set parameters for power usage. Should Pro Power Onboard deplete the battery charge level to the point the truck cannot reach a charge location, it will shut down automatically or based on a pre-determined customer setting to prevent the truck from becoming stranded."

 

[RNeil]

So if you had the Ford Pro Power system, you could use it for V2H.

I did this with a 3.6 kw gas generator. I made a cable with a plug for the 240 volt outlet on the generator and a plug for the house 240 volt outlet. To power the house, I would start the generator, open the main house breaker, plug the cable into the house, and plug the cable into the generator. To connect to the grid, I would unplug the generator, unplug the house, and close the main breaker. Doing this in the wrong order could cause a hazard. With gas heat and a gas range and gas hot water, this could power everything except air conditioning.

The establishment would not like this because it isn't foolproof.

 

[Marktm]

So if you had the Ford Pro Power system, you could use it for V2H.

I did this with a 3.6 kw gas generator. I made a cable with a plug for the 240 volt outlet on the generator and a plug for the house 240 volt outlet. To power the house, I would start the generator, open the main house breaker, plug the cable into the house, and plug the cable into the generator. To connect to the grid, I would unplug the generator, unplug the house, and close the main breaker. Doing this in the wrong order could cause a hazard. With gas heat and a gas range and gas hot water, this could power everything except air conditioning.

The establishment would not like this because it isn't foolproof.

Yes, It would be great if the 9.6 kW version has a Nema14-50 outlet which would indicate it's US home ready - essentially like any conventional 10kW "generator". Like you, our gas heater (fan and controls), refrigerator, ceiling fans and possibly a small portable A/C for a bedroom would all be available for another "deep freeze" or hurricane.
The details of hooking up would depend on your level of expertise and safety - but protecting the utility line men is of utmost importance (and to not electrocute yourself :mrgreen: ).
It's hard to imagine a more flexible home battery system than a four wheel drive pickup with a 100+kWh battery that can be driven in high water or icy roads safely to a working fast charger.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You need a panel interlock, like we had installed. It's a blocking plate that slides, allowing either the main breaker to be On, or the generator breaker to be On, but never both at once. No separate sub-panels needed; you just need to know how to load balance, unless you get a 60 amp or higher gen circuit.