Any 2013 Leaf's with a bar loss yet

[DougWantsALeaf]

Was curious if anyone with a 2013 had experienced a capacity bar loss yet. Curious if the updated batteries were any more resistant to degradation (except for using the 80% mode).

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Was curious if anyone with a 2013 had experienced a capacity bar loss yet. Curious if the updated batteries were any more resistant to degradation (except for using the 80% mode).

General consensus is that we can't tell for sure yet. Some 2013s are reporting very high Ahr readings while others are reporting quite low readings. Mine started low. I haven't noticed dropping range for sure, but the Ahr reading indicates I'm more than 1/2 way to losing a bar already after 4 months. But the weather has turned cooler so I expect degradation to slow down.
My latest readings are 60.34 Ahr (91.08%), 261 gids @ 100%. 4500 miles.

 

[jstack6]

the 2013 does seem better than our 2011 LEAF. We will see as more miles rack up. This summer was the hottest in Phoenix in history yet no big difference in our LEAF yet.

The lizard battery coming out in April 2014 should be even better. Nissan is working hard to get better and better.

 

[mwalsh]

The lizard battery coming out in April 2014 should be even better. Nissan is working hard to get better and better.

Lizard battery. I like it! :lol:

 

[TomT]

It is likely a little early for that at this juncture, regardless. At the similar time point for the 2011 and 2012s, I believe there were very few, if any, that had yet to loose a bar... I didn't loose mine until well in to the second elapsed year...

Was curious if anyone with a 2013 had experienced a capacity bar loss yet.

 

[RegGuheert]

It is likely a little early for that at this juncture, regardless. At the similar time point for the 2011 and 2012s, I believe there were very few, if any, that had yet to loose a bar...

+1

According to the Wiki, there were no reported losses in the 2011s by this time in 2011. Only two reports of a bar loss were made in October and no more bar losses occurred until spring of 2012.

 

[TomT]

And there was no such thing as a Gid Meter for the first 6 months or so after I got my car, so no way to objectively track anything in those early days... (Wow, that seems like forever ago now!)

According to the Wiki, there were no reported losses in the 2011s by this time in 2011. Only two reports of a bar loss were made in October and no more bar losses occurred until spring of 2012.

 

[pbennett]

Maybe I should start another topic but since it's related to 2013 Leafs and capacity loss... I just got a 2013 Leaf SL under a 3 year lease. Is there any good reason I should set it to stop at 80% on charging instead of always charging to 100% for the extra range?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Maybe I should start another topic but since it's related to 2013 Leafs and capacity loss... I just got a 2013 Leaf SL under a 3 year lease. Is there any good reason I should set it to stop at 80% on charging instead of always charging to 100% for the extra range?

Battery degrades much faster at 100% than 80%. So much so that within your 3 year lease it could have a major effect on range. If you need close to the max range it could affect the usefulness of the car.
I started out not caring, but was shocked to see how much degradation had already reportedly occurred. So I've gone the other way and try to baby the battery. 80% charge. Charge right before needing to go somewhere. Don't let it sit at low SOC either. If we're under 35% or so, I tend to charge it up to 50% then let it charge to 80% on a timer.
Degradation is very dependent on temperature. I'd guess your probably fairly safe in Indiana.

 

[surfingslovak]

The record for single bar loss appears to be 7 months and 12,000 miles. Gonewild was likely the first LEAF owner in Phoenix to lose a bar in October 2011. Having received a new battery pack, he lost a bar again in August 2012.

I had my Battey pack changed in Nov after going through a hot summer. And only the first AC software update I believe.

is this news to just me???

what did it cost?

It was FREE. This is my second pack that has lost 1 bar each. I was the first with 12,000 miles in 7 months and a lost of 1 bar. They took my car to the test track and send data to Japan. Change pack just to take a look at the pack.

Now 7 month later I have 1 bar missing from the new pack.

I keeped this off board because I was happy they took care of me and no one else had a problem.

Click to open

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

thanks for the feedback. I also usually charge only to 80% and only go to 100 when needing full range. Given how quickly temperature, AC, average speed, number of stops changes the useful range, I can't yet tell if I have had any real degradation. That said, I am not quite at 2K miles, so not so worried yet. Was curious if as the TN plant perfected operations if the batteries were getting more consistent (And mildly better). I know they are still mainly focused on reducing battery cost over new range, but will be interesting to see over time.

 

[surfingslovak]

Given how quickly temperature, AC, average speed, number of stops changes the useful range, I can't yet tell if I have had any real degradation. That said, I am not quite at 2K miles, so not so worried yet.

Why don't you consider getting LeafSpy? There are range test protocols, which you could follow if you wanted to get better data without a meter.

Was curious if as the TN plant perfected operations if the batteries were getting more consistent (And mildly better). I know they are still mainly focused on reducing battery cost over new range, but will be interesting to see over time.

I'm under the impression that the battery packs, or substantial parts thereof, are still built in Japan. Generally speaking, the manufacturing quality of the cells was found to be high by those that examined them so far. The capacity loss problem does not appear to be related to a manufacturing defect in the classic sense of the word, if you discount the tightening and corrections made to the battery management system firmware. It's more about the design, composition and materials selection. Nissan has reportedly made some tweaks in that regard, but it's too soon to tell how much improvement, if any, will be seen in the field. Nissan also confirmed that they were in late design stages of a more heat-resistant battery, which means that they must have seen enough room for improvement over the tweaks implemented in 2013 MY.

 

[LEAFfan]

Battery degrades much faster at 100% than 80%. So much so that within your 3 year lease it could have a major effect on range. If you need close to the max range it could affect the usefulness of the car.

Much faster? Sorry, that just isn't true. There is no reason why the OP can't charge his LEAF to 100% every time if they need to as long as they don't let it sit for any length of time at full charge. THAT will degrade the battery pack. Driving 75mph most of the time will degrade the battery. Here, the BIGGEST factor is high ambient heat over time. Where they are, that shouldn't be a problem. Letting it sit a couple days or so at 80% won't degrade it either. They do really well in Indiana and Ohio. I'm willing to bet that they'll still have 12 CBs with little degradation after three years with them charging to 100% if they don't speed and leave it fully charged for days at a time.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

LEAFFan, do you feel any improvements in range with your 13 vs your 12?

Why does the speeding degrade the battery? The fast discharge?

 

[surfingslovak]

Why does the speeding degrade the battery? The fast discharge?

I would take this type of interpretation with a grain of salt. While gentle driving is definitely something to recommend as a defensive practice, we have no way of measuring just how much better it is for the battery to drive 35 mph instead of 75 mph. Yes, the higher rate of discharge and the higher current will put more stress on the pack, but even 75 mph would translate to only about 1C discharge, which is relatively benign in the grand scheme of things. Faster discharge and higher speeds will lead to lower efficiency and range, which means that you will need to charge more and will put more cycles on the battery as a result. Stoaty incorporated this into his battery aging model, and having to charge 20% more often due to lower efficiency, definitely has a measurable impact.

But we shouldn't generalize. If someone drives very short distances anyway, it won't matter all that much if they are going slow or fast and what their efficiency was. While we could and have argued about the finer points of battery care endlessly on this forum, as it happens, ambient heat drowns out just about any other contributing factor by an order of magnitude. While this is can be pretty acute to some owners, especially in hotter parts of the country, this also means that we cannot settle these debates and arguments, because it's nearly impossible to observe any measurable difference in the field. It gets all downed out by the heat. Take 80% vs 100% charging. Many expected to reap benefits of this defensive practice, and probably rightfully so. And what did we see instead? Owners following 80% charging protocols might have delayed the loss of the first capacity bar by weeks instead of months or years, as they originally had hoped for.

So will your battery lose capacity faster when you like to drive with a lead foot? The answer is a resounding maybe. If you feel better when pursuing conservative practices, then by all means drive a bit slower and avoid the freeways if you can. You can't go wrong doing that. The reality is that this effort might not result in a worthwhile improvement in terms of battery longevity, but that's a different topic altogether.

 

[RegGuheert]

...as it happens, ambient heat drowns out just about any other contributing factor by an order of magnitude.

That's only seen to be true in hot climates like Phoenix. It may also be true elsewhere for those who put low miles on the car and want to keep it a long time. In locations like Seattle, battery cycling is seen to be dominant for very high-mileage drivers.

It seems that the number of miles you can get on a LEAF before you lose your first bar varies between about 7000 and 70,000 miles, depending upon your climate and how quickly you accumulate miles.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I would take this type of interpretation with a grain of salt. While gentle driving is definitely something to recommend as a defensive practice, we have no way of measuring just how much better it is for the battery to drive 35 mph instead of 75 mph. Yes, the higher rate of discharge and the higher current will put more stress on the pack, but even 75 mph would translate to only about 1C discharge, which is relatively benign in the grand scheme of things. Faster discharge and higher speeds will lead to lower efficiency and range, which means that you will need to charge more and will put more cycles on the battery as a result. Stoaty incorporated this into his battery aging model, and having to charge 20% more often due to lower efficiency, definitely has a measurable impact...

I think the other factor with higher discharge rates (and higher regen rates) is heat. I see quite a bit more heating of the battery at 20+ kW than 10 kW or less. And that heat stays for awhile, given the mass of the battery. Driving 60 mph up a moderate grade or slow speeds up a steep hill raises the battery temperature quite a lot. As does charging and regen IME.

I think that the high discharge/regen rates required to tackle my mountainous terrain may be why my battery capacity has dropped quite a bit (59.02 Ah) despite a benign climate that doesn't get hot. But I'm just guessing; Stoaty's model doesn't have a climate zone to match mine, so far as I know.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Battery degrades much faster at 100% than 80%. So much so that within your 3 year lease it could have a major effect on range. If you need close to the max range it could affect the usefulness of the car.

Much faster? Sorry, that just isn't true.

Ok. Thats good to know.

What about not using the battery? Apple says "For proper maintenance of a lithium-based battery, it’s important to keep the electrons in it moving occasionally".

We went on two trips for a week in our ICE. When I came back, there seemed to be a notable drop in capacity even with the car not used and sitting at 50% or so.

Anyone else notice big drops when letting the car sit unused? I remember someone let their car sit at 100% for 3 weeks and they really hurt. But could it have been sitting vs. the 100%?

 

[surfingslovak]

...as it happens, ambient heat drowns out just about any other contributing factor by an order of magnitude.

That's only seen to be true in hot climates like Phoenix. It may also be true elsewhere for those who put low miles on the car and want to keep it a long time. In locations like Seattle, battery cycling is seen to be dominant for very high-mileage drivers.

I would challenge you to plot calendar losses versus cycling losses for different climates, and come up with a comparison. I would contend that with the LEAF the losses incurred from and because of ambient heat are larger than cycling losses. I would also challenge you or anyone else on this forum to find anyone in the field, who can conclusively demonstrate that any of the good battery care practices prolonged the usable life of their battery. We know that these practices are sound, and if we cannot see them manifested in the field, it's because of the sensitivity of this particular battery to ambient heat, which is hardly controllable by the user. I still recall the nearly religious debates on this forum in 2010 and 2011. There is almost nothing that came to pass. All these predictions turned out to be wrong, and sometimes quite significantly so. I wonder why.

 

[RegGuheert]

What about not using the battery? Apple says "For proper maintenance of a lithium-based battery, it’s important to keep the electrons in it moving occasionally".

The problem with a computer is that the battery will fully discharge after a relatively short time. With a LEAF, it would take a particularly long time for the Li-ion battery to discharge, especially if the 12V battery is disconnected.

We went on two trips for a week in our ICE. When I came back, there seemed to be a notable drop in capacity even with the car not used and sitting at 50% or so.

There is a constant load on the 12V battery, which gets recharged (sort of!) by the traction battery every 5 days.

Anyone else notice big drops when letting the car sit unused? I remember someone let their car sit at 100% for 3 weeks and they really hurt. But could it have been sitting vs. the 100%?

No. Sitting at 30% versus 100% makes a very big difference. Please have a look at the plot in Figure 1 in the paper linked by Stoaty. Notice that at 90% SOC, that battery loses about 5% of its capacity IN ONLY ONE MONTH, regardless of whether the temperature is 25C or 60C. At a 30% SOC, the battery doesn't lose nearly that much capacity in a year at 25C. (That chemistry is not the same as the one in the LEAF, but the trends should be similar.)

The point is that sitting around at 80% or 95% probably does not make much difference, it's not a great idea. Sitting at 30% SOC should be significantly better. IOW, don't charge up until you are ready to drive it.