$9900 Nissan Level III chargers come to the US

[tps]

What CAN'T be explained, is WHY in the world the utility Will NOT credit back (at the same rate that the utility charges end users) a QC facility that uses a solar array - which can easily push back onto the grid (YES ... during peak usage, when no one's charging) as much power as is being used by EV's - provided the PV array is large enough. Please answer why THAT is, Mr wizard.

The demand charge does not pay for energy generated or consumed. The point of the demand charge is to pay for the larger "pipe" (and maintenance costs) through which the energy flows, not for the energy itself. Grid-tied solar will not change the size of the pipe required for nighttime charging.

Now, in practice, I think the demand charge is inflated into a "sin tax" to encourage consumers to lower their peak demand. Remember, in the big picture high peak demand not only means more and larger transmission and distribution facilities, it means more power plants to generate the power. That said, grid-tie solar should be encouraged, because while there has to be a large enough pipe to absorb the power generated by a ditributed grid-tied solar array, likely this power doesn't have to be transmitted very far before it is consumed. The biggest flaw to this is that the distribution system has to be sized as if the distributed solar generation didn't exist; one doesn't want the grid to collapse from overload on a cloudy day...

 

[Valdemar]

that has NEVER been the case. the higher the volume, the lower the cost to provide the service. that is why intel makes so much money. they build the processors by the millions. but they still sell them for as much as they can.

That is because there is demand and little competition, so they pretty much can throttle the supply to maintain the price and high margins. Why do you think flat TV prices have fallen down so much so you can pretty much buy one for what it costs to make it?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

that has NEVER been the case. the higher the volume, the lower the cost to provide the service. that is why intel makes so much money. they build the processors by the millions. but they still sell them for as much as they can.

That is because there is demand and little competition, so they pretty much can throttle the supply to maintain the price and high margins. Why do you think flat TV prices have fallen down so much so you can pretty much buy one for what it costs to make it?

competition...i thought that was mentioned.

and btw, flat screens have never been sold at a marginal profit.

 

[DaveEV]

I'm waiting on a DIY Level III charger. We can call it the "weekend project quick-charger" :lol: Really it shouldn't be all that hard to do. If you're going above 20 KW the demand charges kick in.

No demand charge for residential !!!!
You could have a network of home DC chargers for folks to share, like a club.

Not yet, anyway. SDG&E appears to be trying to change that (see the recent SDG&E solar rate thread).

I was reading somewhere else that moderate penetration of EVs charging at up to 6.6 kW is somewhere around the threshold that would cause the utility to start needing to upgrade neighborhood transformers.

Did anyone else read the Q2 2011 EV Project report? (Only covers April-June 2011 - can't wait to see Q3 report)

Just look at the how effective the SDG&E TOU rates are at encouraging people to start charging at midnight on page 9 w/just 240 LEAFs reporting.

Demand jumps from probably 50 kW to 400 kW in 15-30 minutes as everyone's timers start off. That could certainly be a shock to the grid if there were a lot of EVs in a small are. Other EV Project areas with TOU rates have similar spikes in demand. I can definitely see the utilities wanting to spread this out. Imagine if we had 6.6kW chargers... How many LEAFs are in San Diego now?

 

[garygid]

So, the PU here (SDG&E) is begging the CPUC for permission
to build and operate QC stations.

Clearly, they have some business plan, ...
and some significant advantage, right?

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, the PU here (SDG&E) is begging the CPUC for permission
to build and operate QC stations.

Clearly, they have some business plan, ...
and some significant advantage, right?

The advantages are obvious; beaucoup money in a company that generates $1.8 BILLION is revenue, regulated and "guaranteed" profits from the CPUC, they don't have to pay themselves demand fees, they control the electric commodity, and its delivery, they have a huge workforce that can install the units, their own internal billing and administration, probably available properties to put the chargers on, an existing insurance policy that these can be added to.... and on and on.

In others words, everything that a start up (without Obama bucks) won't have.

 

[hill]

What CAN'T be explained, is WHY in the world the utility Will NOT credit back (at the same rate that the utility charges end users) a QC facility that uses a solar array - which can easily push back onto the grid (YES ... during peak usage, when no one's charging) as much power as is being used by EV's - provided the PV array is large enough. Please answer why THAT is, Mr wizard.

The demand charge does not pay for energy generated or consumed. The point of the demand charge is to pay for the larger "pipe" (and maintenance costs) through which the energy flows, not for the energy itself. Grid-tied solar will not change the size of the pipe required for nighttime charging. . . . . . . . . snip

I don't need no stinkin' 50kW draw ... for starters. I don't need to charge at night either. But let's say I have a 10HP rotary phase converter laying around, and I want to put it to good use again. Bam - now I've got 3 phase 240v. What with all the commercial businesses going toes up, I'll bet I could acquire a step up transformer and have 400 DC volts at home in no time. It seems I've read more than one post on mynissanleaf about running a Chademo at (say fore example) just under 20kW in stead of full power. As far at the utility knows - all i've got is 225amp - 240v service. With our 7.1kWh AC rated PV system, we're running almost a 1,800kWh yearly surplus. SCE wouldn't be the wiser, as far as I can tell.
So much for the utility's demand fees, and the need for a bigger pipe or neighborhood transformer. The only trick will be explaining why I have a half dozen visitors in Leafs pulling into my garage 7 days a week - for only 15-20 minutes, between 10am and 2pm
Just trying to think outside the box here.

 

[mxp]

Does anyone here know the web link to the AV pre-order?

I found some comments via searching on MNL:

Quoted:

Meanwhile, Nissan and Sumitomo will launch an online charger ordering system in the US in January 2012. Installation of the DC quick-charge units will begin here in the States in spring of 2012.

Quoted:
The good news: Nissan (in partnership with Sumitomo Corp) announced they are selling their $9900 CHAdeMOs in the USA through their distributor AeroEnvironment--taking orders now. And starting ...

 

[Ingineer]

Yes, so far total Vaporware. January came and went, No QC ordering system. Now we are about to see March. I suspect a lot has to do with hiring a competitor (!) such as Aerovironment to sell the product for Nissan when it undercuts their existing QC product by many, many thousands of dollars. I'm flabbergasted by Nissan's logic! (or lack thereof!)

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

Meanwhile, at the Hall of Justice, the competitors are gearing up to compete with the vapor ware from Nissan / Sumitomo.

I'll be checking out a very innovative new DC charger this week, at a price point that would choke Ecotality and AV.

 

[garygid]

Tony,
Check ... new charger, check, ... power charger, check ...
check charger, check ... how?

 

[CWO4Mann]

I'm waiting on a DIY Level III charger. We can call it the "weekend project quick-charger" :lol: Really it shouldn't be all that hard to do. If you're going above 20 KW the demand charges kick in.

No demand charge for residential !!!!

You could have a network of home DC chargers for folks to share, like a club.

I can't wait to install mine... I hope my neighbors don't mind the occasional brown-outs... :ugeek:

How about installing a dynamotor with flywheel and then running your 220vac at 20-40KW phase converter, then a voltage regulator and produce 440/3? You can make up a QC "nozzle" from discrete wiring and banana plugs, then wrap all of it in shrink wrap insulation. Start the dynamotor to produce 440vdc from 220vac, then convert to 440vac then run it into a phase converter to make 440/3 then condition the output, then into the home-brew cable and nozzle. Forget UL, forget the permit nazis and just do it. I mean, we've all read Abie Hoffman and the Mother Earth Catalog, right? Mix that knowledge with your inculcation in the Prepper World and you are home free.

 

[mxp]

Yes, so far total Vaporware. January came and went, No QC ordering system. Now we are about to see March. I suspect a lot has to do with hiring a competitor (!) such as Aerovironment to sell the product for Nissan when it undercuts their existing QC product by many, many thousands of dollars. I'm flabbergasted by Nissan's logic! (or lack thereof!)

-Phil

Thanks for the update Phil. The continued wait is very frustrating indeed...

@Tony: Sure hope that competitor is offering something under $5k! ;-P

 

[Ingineer]

How about installing a dynamotor with flywheel and then running your 220vac at 20-40KW phase converter, then a voltage regulator and produce 440/3? You can make up a QC "nozzle" from discrete wiring and banana plugs, then wrap all of it in shrink wrap insulation. Start the dynamotor to produce 440vdc from 220vac, then convert to 440vac then run it into a phase converter to make 440/3 then condition the output, then into the home-brew cable and nozzle. Forget UL, forget the permit nazis and just do it. I mean, we've all read Abie Hoffman and the Mother Earth Catalog, right? Mix that knowledge with your inculcation in the Prepper World and you are home free.

Not that easy! I've gotten "homebrew" CHAdeMO charging working, but it was a fantastic amount of work, and if you don't get everything 100% right the Leaf not only shuts down your QC attempt, but then will not even be driveable until a trip to the Dealer's Consult III+ computer to reset the huge list of DTC's you'll have.

It stinks that it's this hard, but if you want the technology, the complexity is sometimes unavoidable. Then you've got the lawyers in there adding so many safety requirements, by the time you figure it out, they are already standardizing CHAdeMO 2! :roll: (or SAE J2836 or whatever the future standard is!)

-Phil

 

[evnow]

What Tesla wants to do with their "super charger" is interesting. They use their 10 kW chargers - put 10 of them together (not sure how many in series/parallel) and make the super charger. Given that the extra 10 kW charger is a $1,500 option, their SuperCharger is probably quite cheap too.

Ofcourse, I wish Tesla had just adopted CHAdeMO instead. But, Musk has Jobs Syndrome.

 

[CWO4Mann]

How about installing a dynamotor with flywheel and then running your 220vac at 20-40KW phase converter, then a voltage regulator and produce 440/3? You can make up a QC "nozzle" from discrete wiring and banana plugs, then wrap all of it in shrink wrap insulation. Start the dynamotor to produce 440vdc from 220vac, then convert to 440vac then run it into a phase converter to make 440/3 then condition the output, then into the home-brew cable and nozzle. Forget UL, forget the permit nazis and just do it. I mean, we've all read Abie Hoffman and the Mother Earth Catalog, right? Mix that knowledge with your inculcation in the Prepper World and you are home free.

Not that easy! I've gotten "homebrew" CHAdeMO charging working, but it was a fantastic amount of work, and if you don't get everything 100% right the Leaf not only shuts down your QC attempt, but then will not even be driveable until a trip to the Dealer's Consult III+ computer to reset the huge list of DTC's you'll have.

It stinks that it's this hard, but if you want the technology, the complexity is sometimes unavoidable. Then you've got the lawyers in there adding so many safety requirements, by the time you figure it out, they are already standardizing CHAdeMO 2! :roll: (or SAE J2836 or whatever the future standard is!)

-Phil

Of course you're correct. And I read over your previous posts about the tow-able charger, etc. None of the challenges we surface here are totally unsolvable, but most of them are daunting. I mean, how many folks can find an old three phase electric motor (junk yards for elevators come to mind) and then reqire it to turn it into a 440vac/3 phase dynamotor. Aside from having to have a fairly large hoist just to get the motor from the back 40 of the junk yard to the back of your pick up truck. Personally, after studying your turbine and towable power trailer I am convinced that that may be the way to go for an extended range capability. Have you looked at the compact and miniature steam turbines (http://www.cyclonepower.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. The Army just bought a bunch of them for field testing and running generators.

The QC issue is big until we can get around the various issues common to any 3 phase installation.

Dave

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I think we need to focus our frustration in a productive direction. I think we need to let our legislators know how happy we are with EV's, how unhappy we are with Ecotality and how amazing it is that Nissan is coming up with an affordable DC quick charger and start lobbying state and federal legislators to focus all state and federal dollars that are set aside for charging infrastructure in the near future on L3. L3 is key to pure EV's gaining mass adoption, public L2 is window dressing for PHEV's, let them charge at home and work for now!

 

[Herm]

Ofcourse, I wish Tesla had just adopted CHAdeMO instead. But, Musk has Jobs Syndrome.

In parallel.. probably not a bad way to do it and take advantage of mass production.. something like he is doing with the Falcon 9 and its 9 rockets.. I think Musk has Tony Stark syndrome

I wish him all the luck and success in the world.

 

[KJD]

I think we need to focus our frustration in a productive direction. I think we need to let our legislators know how happy we are with EV's, how unhappy we are with Ecotality and how amazing it is that Nissan is coming up with an affordable DC quick charger and start lobbying state and federal legislators to focus all state and federal dollars that are set aside for charging infrastructure in the near future on L3. L3 is key to pure EV's gaining mass adoption, public L2 is window dressing for PHEV's, let them charge at home and work for now!

This sounds like an excellent idea to me.

Has anyone called Nissan customer support and asked how come these DC quick chargers were not for sale in January like the press release said they would be ?

 

[TRONZ]

Did this get UL approval already???