80% Charge only 9 bars?

[planet4ever]

I thought the Leaf constantly recalibrated the fuel bars relative to the capacity remaining in the battery.. after 10 years the 9-10 bar will still light up at an 80% charge even if the car has only enough remaining capacity to go a couple of blocks.

As Herm says, the bars are definitely relative to the battery's capacity. The battery capacity is temperature sensitive. If you charge to 80% when the battery is warm, and it later cools down, it's capacity drops, but it is still holding as much charge as before, so it is now at more than 80% capacity. That could in theory cause you to see 11 bars. I'm wondering, though, if in kubel's case he might have been preheating in the morning, and so resumed charging, and the cabin heater wasn't using electricity as fast as the EVSE was feeding it to the car. (With the temperature above 0°F I really doubt if the battery heater was involved.)

Ray

 

[edatoakrun]

I had 9 bars showing after "80%" charging twice last week, for the first time since last September, coinciding with some temperature in the higher range of "4 bars".

Two nights ago it cooled down again and ten bars came back on a subsequent 80% charge, and even with slightly higher ambient temps today, I did not lose the tenth bar.

Contrast with my experience last Fall, on p 21 of this thread:

...On the afternoon of 9/6 my 6th temp bar appeared, but for the first time in a few weeks, the 10th charge bar did not disappear. And I have had 10 bars when charging to 80% and they all stayed there, even after the 6th temp bar came on (every day I checked) ever since...

So the set-point of my 9/10 charge bar seems to have dropped from ~75 F to ~45 F, since last Fall.

I expect the next time I see 9 bars at "80%" it may well stay there for the season, until I lose the first capacity bar, or (maybe) until Nissan "fixes" the "gauge problem".

 

[RegGuheert]

I had 9 bars showing after "80%" charging twice last week, for the first time since last September, coinciding with some temperature in the higher range of "4 bars".

How many miles are on your LEAF now, Ed?

 

[ttweed]

I had 9 bars showing after "80%" charging twice last week, for the first time since last September, coinciding with some temperature in the higher range of "4 bars".

I have not experienced a repeat of the 80%/9 bars charging phenomena since the temps dropped here at the onset of cooler winter weather. My temp bars have stayed constantly in the 5-bar range all winter--I have never seen 4 bars at all, or 6 bars since last summer. I fully expect to see it again when it warms up this summer and my temp bars go back to 6 and stay there for months.

TT

 

[edatoakrun]

I had 9 bars showing after "80%" charging twice last week, for the first time since last September, coinciding with some temperature in the higher range of "4 bars".

How many miles are on your LEAF now, Ed?

~15,600 today, and ~12,400 on 9/8/12.

 

[RegGuheert]

~15,600 today, and ~12,400 on 9/8/12.

Ouch! That seems quite low! Perhaps mountain miles are hard on the LEAF's battery.

One question for those who have seen only 9 charge bars after an 80% charge: Did you gradually get fewer and fewer miles on your tenth bar after an 80% charge before you eventually lost it altogether? In other words, did you find that over time your 10th bar range dropped from 3 to 2.5 to 2 to 1.5 to 1 to 0.5 miles before the bar disappeared or did it remain in the 2-to-3-mile range until it dropped? TIA!

 

[edatoakrun]

~15,600 today, and ~12,400 on 9/8/12.

Ouch! That seems quite low! Perhaps mountain miles are hard on the LEAF's battery....

I get ~20% of my charging from regen, so I would expect you need to adjust my charge cycles per mile by ~the same amount, maybe more since much of the regen is "fast" charging.

I also use ~10% of my driving at over ~30 kW (impossible to do legally if you are a flat-lander) which may have adverse effects on battery life.

My battery pack is also occasionally exposed to ambient temperature exceeding 110 F.

Since I park outside, my average battery temp is probably close to the US norm, but also, I'd think, subject to more daily temperature variation than most all other packs in the USA.

I'm very curious how these factors will eventually show up in capacity loss.

="RegGuheert" ...One question for those who have seen only 9 charge bars after an 80% charge: Did you gradually get fewer and fewer miles on your tenth bar from 3 to 2.5 to 2 to 1.5 to 1 to 0.5 miles before the bar disappeared or did it remain in the 2-to-3-mile range until it dropped? after an 80% charge before you eventually lost it altogether? In other words, did you find that over time your 10th bar range dropped?...

You never saw 10 bars?

No sign of early loss of tenth bar, but the highly variable conditions and energy use of every mile I drive would make that very hard to observe. When I begin my "80% "commute", I now lose my ninth bar at very close to the same point I lose it when I begin my with 10 bars, but I expect it actually is occurring after slightly less energy use than when my LEAF was "new".

"Miles per bar" is a pretty meaningless energy use term for me, and I think it should be for all LEAFers, but that's another topic...

More to the point, I still have not detected significant range loss since I began testing in 9/11. Lots of posts I need to get to on that topic when I have the time.

="RegGuheert" TIA!

Huh? I searched and got:

"Transient ischemic attack"?

"Typical Ignorant American"?

 

[RegGuheert]

I get ~20% of my charging from regen, so I would expect you need to adjust my charge cycles per mile by ~the same amount, maybe more since much of the regen is "fast" charging.

I also use ~10% of my driving at over ~30 kW (impossible to do legally if you are a flat-lander) which may have adverse effects on battery life.

My battery pack is also occasionally exposed to ambient temperature exceeding 110 F.

Since I park outside, my average battery temp is probably close to the US norm, but also, I'd think, subject to more daily temperature variation than most all other packs in the USA.

I'm very curious how these factors will eventually show up in capacity loss.

Thanks for detailing your situation! It sounds quite demanding, even with low miles.

You never saw 10 bars?

No, we always get 10 bars when we charge to 80%. Sorry if my wording was poor.

No sign of early loss of tenth bar, but the highly variable conditions and energy use of every mile I drive would make that very hard to observe. When I begin my "80% "commute", I now lose my ninth bar at very close to the same point I lose it when I begin my with 10 bars, but I expect it actually is occurring after slightly less energy use than when my LEAF was "new".

I see. Interesting!

"Miles per bar" is a pretty meaningless energy use term for me, and I think it should be for all LEAFers, but that's another topic...

I find miles per bar to be a quite useful concept in my daily driving. I don't have each of the bars calibrated in my head, but I tend to get between four and seven miles per bar. Sometimes I can get many more miles if I really work at it.

Regarding the tenth bar, I never get more than about three miles out of it when the LEAF was charged using 80% mode and the cabin was not pre-heated.

More to the point, I still have not detected significant range loss since I began testing in 9/11.

Of course this is the key point, and the one I am most interested in understanding. I'll be interested to read more about your experiences/test results on this front.

TIA!

Huh?

Thanks In Advance!

 

[TomT]

It seems like forever ago now but when I first started occasionally seeing 9 fuel bars, before I dropped my first capacity bar, I had noticed no appreciable change in the miles on the tenth bar...

One question for those who have seen only 9 charge bars after an 80% charge: Did you gradually get fewer and fewer miles on your tenth bar after an 80% charge before you eventually lost it altogether? In other words, did you find that over time your 10th bar range dropped from 3 to 2.5 to 2 to 1.5 to 1 to 0.5 miles before the bar disappeared or did it remain in the 2-to-3-mile range until it dropped? TIA!

 

[RegGuheert]

It seems like forever ago now but when I first started occasionally seeing 9 fuel bars, before I dropped my first capacity bar, I had noticed no appreciable change in the miles on the tenth bar...

O.K. I think that's basically what Ed said, too. I guess the bottom line is that there is so much hysteresis in the lighting of these bars that it doesn't take much of a change in charging for that tenth bar to disappear. Thanks!

 

[edatoakrun]

="RegGuheert"..... I'll be interested to read more about your experiences/test results on this front...

Actually, my present dilemma is largely in trying to integrate the recharge data from my recent tests, with my range test results, as posted here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is the thread (or threads) form which the "capacity distribution" spreadsheet was compiled?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dG9vbzBiMW8tc1c2UzFKM3RiUG5ORHc#gid=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The large and unexplained variations in recharge capacity between LEAFs, as posted there, make me wary of relying on my own "from the wall" results, to determine my own present "100%"-to-VLBW battery capacity,

Any further update on your own recharge results?

Didn't you finally get your CW functional?

How do your CW kWh consumption reports compare with your recharge results?

PS, back on-topic:

My "80%" charge is till showing 10 bars, but hopefully I will be able to see it drop to 9 at on a constant charge (like I did last Summer) sometime this week as the weather warms up.

As I have posted several times before on this thread, it would be very interesting to have someone with a gid meter observe the same thing, to see if the gid signal is what actually actually the 10th charge bar's appearance/disappearance.

 

[RegGuheert]

What is the thread (or threads) form which the "capacity distribution" spreadsheet was compiled?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dG9vbzBiMW8tc1c2UzFKM3RiUG5ORHc#gid=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% charge

The large and unexplained variations in recharge capacity between LEAFs, as posted there, make me wary of relying on my own "from the wall" results, to determine my own present "100%"-to-VLBW battery capacity,

Agreed there are large variations there.

Any further update on your own recharge results?

No. I can only meter L1 recharges and I haven't recharged with L1 for many months.

Didn't you finally get your CW functional?

Yes, it is all fixed. I only recently discovered that the "Energy Economy Simulation" data only hangs around for a couple of months, so I have started to export it regularly. That's useful to have.

How do your CW kWh consumption reports compare with your recharge results?

I don't know yet since I don't have any recharge data since getting Carwings working. I also have not run down below VLBW since then. Next time I see VLBW I will try to remember to recharge using the meter and see what I get.

PS, back on-topic:

My "80%" charge is till showing 10 bars, but hopefully I will be able to see it drop to 9 at on a constant charge (like I did last Summer) sometime this week as the weather warms up.

As I have posted several times before on this thread, it would be very interesting to have someone with a gid meter observe the same thing, to see if the gid signal is what actually actually the 10th charge bar's appearance/disappearance.

Yes, that would be good to know. Unfortunately, the charge bars are a form of SOC meter and Gids are supposed to be related to stored energy, so it would likely be different for each car depending on the level of battery degradation.

 

[edatoakrun]

Thanks for the link, RegGuheert, and as to your CW functionality, better late than never.

When I went to that thread, I saw my 15-month old post on the first page:

Post subject: Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:11 am

If you've had the NTB11-041 update, please also post your Carwings daily "energy used" reports, if they coincide with your
drive from 100% to VLB/turtle/dead.

That appears to me to be the most accurate way to estimate my battery capacity, without an available SOC or wall meter.

What has changed since then, is my subsequent loss of reported kWh capacity NOT reflected in loss of range in multiple tests, has led me to suspect that there may be errors in the LEAFs kWh use reports, from the dash, nav screen and Carwings, quite possibly directly or indirectly correlating to the well-documented reports of inconsistency in Wh content per gid.

And I believe we could determine this if this were so, if we knew accurate "Wall to Wheels" charging efficiency rates at standard battery temperatures.

 

[gbshaun]

I have not experienced a repeat of the 80%/9 bars charging phenomena since the temps dropped here at the onset of cooler winter weather. My temp bars have stayed constantly in the 5-bar range all winter--I have never seen 4 bars at all, or 6 bars since last summer. I fully expect to see it again when it warms up this summer and my temp bars go back to 6 and stay there for months.
TT

Encinitas CA, exactly the same experience here. 2011. 13,000 miles. No significant loss in range.

 

[edatoakrun]

The overnight temps were a bit higher the last few nights, mid to high 40's, and sure enough, after only 17 minutes of charging to get to "80%" at 3:17 AM, the capacity bars were at 9, by the CW email.

So I figured they'd stay at 9 all day, but it got colder as the day went on.

I noticed it was about 42 f outside, so I just went down to check, and its back up to 10 bars capacity, at 4 bars temp!

That's the first time I've ever seen it go from 9 to 10, rather than the usual 10 to 9, during the daytime.

CW now correctly shows the same 10 bars, BTW. CW always accurately reflects my current dash capacity bars, after I refresh.

 

[planet4ever]

Yup. The battery "shrinks" when it gets cold. That makes the "fuel" (electron) level go up, so you see more bars. Thanks for the confirmation of what I have always believed -- the one and only state of charge number that the car sends the owners website is the number of bars. (Note that Carwings is really separate from the owners website. It does get additional information.)

Ray

 

[Stanton]

I noticed it was about 42 f outside, so I just went down to check, and its back up to 10 bars capacity, at 4 bars temp!

That's the first time I've ever seen it go from 9 to 10, rather than the usual 10 to 9, during the daytime.

Saw this for the first time the other day as well; it happened a few minutes after I started the car (9 bars) and backed out of the driveway (10 bars). We've had some big temp fluctuations lately (70's to 30's), but my garage is in the 50's (until summer), so I guess it suddenly got colder when I left the garage. :roll:

 

[cdub]

This happens sometimes... and then the next day it goes back to 10...go figure. Usually happens when it's cold as others have said.

 

[edatoakrun]

I'm not sure what it means, but for the last few weeks my LEAF has returned showing 10 bars after an "80%" charge every time, despite the charging temps being consistently higher than a few months ago when I reported the results above on this page.

 

[TomT]

On my car I started to see only 9 bars when charging to 80 percent a number of times before I lost the first capacity bar. After that, it gave me a consistent 10 bars. Once again, I started to see only 9 bars a number of times before I lost the second bar and then, once again after that second capacity bar loss, I get a consistent 10 bars at 80%... Based on my observations, it seems that seeing 9 bars fairly regularly on an 80% charge is the precursor of a capacity bar loss.