80% Charge only 9 bars?
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ttweed
Well-known member
wsbca & drees-- How deep into your drive does the 10th bar last now? Same as before (i.e., when car was new)? Noticeably less?drees said:
My 9-bar experience was a little different. As I posted above, over the last several weeks we had one 9-bar/75% charge, then two 10-bar/83% charges, then another 9-bar/75% charge. On the two 10-bar days, the 10th bar lasted 1 mile and then 2 miles of driving before disappearing, which is far less than what we have seen in the past.
Unfortunately, our usual 80% charging routine has been interrupted due to a lifestyle change which has required longer range out of the car, so I haven't been able to monitor this 80% charging behavior as much as I'd like. My wife has entered a program to train service dogs for wounded warriors and autistic children, so she has been attending classes in far-flung locations around the county, and has needed 100% charges much more often lately. Each of the latest 80% charging sessions were surrounded by several days of 100% charging, as well as some opportunity charging away from home during the day.
TT
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
wsbca said:
ya, i've seen it.. actually let me clarify. i created an experiment to test the changing capacity during "hot weather" charging. i started with battery pack at 275-276 GID measured 6 consecutive days charged at night temps around 65º which doesnt matter and i will tell you why in a second.
then i charged during the day and picked a week that had our hottest temps of the year (same week as yours...) now, we had further to go but was able to charge when temps were in mid 80's, mid 90's and one day where ambient temps were probably in low to mid 100's (charged in Sun) had temp gauge sitting in shade under car taped so it was hanging an inch below the bottom of the car to minimize radiant heat from light gray concrete drive
my GID count dropped to 268 then 263 but the 263 was day AFTER the hottest day when i got 265. then it took almost a week of charging back at night with temps as low as the low 60's to get back to 275 GID.
so back to the temps when charging comment. with limited data (since i only have my car plus another in OR who had similar issues but also got similar results) everything i say should be taken into consideration but not regarded as "facts"
but it would appear the BMS does control charge based on temperatures. question is how the temperature is measured. if within the pack, the reaction time of the temps is going to be slow. it took 3 days for TB 6 to go away and it normally is NEVER there during night charging and the temperatures we had.
so supposing BMS takes temperature history eliminating short spikes to get an "expected" temperature. uses that figure to say ok, to protect pack. we make it 100% = 275.
then hot spell starts; higher expected temp. so now BMS says ok 100% = 268.
but owner has slight change in routine. leaves garage on Sat Afternoon to take family to lunch. parks in full Sun with SOC still pretty high. now, pack is overheated fast enough to do damage. remember temporary spikes are ok. but what if a temporary spike lasting just say 2-3 hours but runs temps up over 150 or 160? is that too far fetched if parked on black asphalt with OAT at 110?
so what we losing? well, not much really but this is only one incident and a relatively common one. also under this scenario, we would lose nothing if charged to 80% all the time since temps would never get that high and car would/should not be exposed to temps that high long enough right? or is that 24 heat soak rule not accurate? or is 24 hours when small permanent loss becomes large permanent loss so AZ'ers are seeing degradation via "a million tiny cuts?"
wsbca
Well-known member
ttweed said:
Well, sure enough I jinxed it - back down to 9 bars again last night :? But it was hot again yesterday (San Diego hot, not PHX hot) and the garage didn't really cool off.
As to the 10th bar duration, when we have one, that's hard to say. I am not the every day driver of the car and don't have a precise feel for how long that bar usually lasts. I can say this though - we have a 1K 10% descent about 1 mile from the house, and even on a 9 bar 80% charge, by the time we get to the bottom, the biggest regen circle is disabled, which is the same behavior we see when it's a 10 bar charge. In fact today, even on the 9 bar start, we briefly had 2 regen circles disabled. That somehow hints to me that we're pretty close to the same charge level either way, but I guess that depends on what sensor is making the regen-disable determination. Today the 9th bar was still illuminated when we reached our destination 4 miles away, which surely one would hope for, but that short route does include another very steep uphill, which invariably uses up the 10th bar.
Another perhaps interesting, but maybe not too useful anecdote - on Sunday we had a 10 bar 80% charge ending at 4am. We had a fair bit of driving to do so around 8:30 am I fired it up again to get a little more juice on board - a total of 1.448 kWh was delivered by the Blink, and the gauge went up to 11 bars which I guess I found a little surprising. And then, on mostly (but not entirely) gentle terrain, at freeway speed (but trying to stay around 60), that bar lasted for about 20 miles.
Frankly, I don't pay that close attention to how many miles I get out of the 10th bar. My house is about 330ft above sea level, so typically the first 3-4 miles are mostly downhill - typical mi/kWh at 3-4 miles is 6-8 mi/kWh depending if I'm running the AC or not. That makes it difficult to compare 1st-bar loss data to other people...ttweed said:
Today, I lost the 10th bar around 4.5 miles. Yesterday, I made my 22mi round-trip commute on 4 bars total. That is fairly typical - I think that 4-5 bars used when I get home are fairly average depending on how efficiently I drive (typical is around 4.5 mi/kWh) and how much slight detours I take - but as I said - I don't really pay that much attention to the bars. Typical GOM reading is mid-high 30 miles to low 40 miles.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
My tenth capacity bar at "80%" charge continues to disappear, about the same time the 6th temperature bar appears, and vice versa.
As I asked on P 17 of this thread, it would be very useful for those with gid meters to report whether the gid count varied with temperature, like the 9/10 capacity bar does.
Until recently, I would have been pretty sure 9 bars at "80%" charge indicated my battery had loss of capacity of ~10%.
But recent range tests, which seem to show no loss of range in my LEAF over the last 12 months, might indicate otherwise.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As I asked on P 17 of this thread, it would be very useful for those with gid meters to report whether the gid count varied with temperature, like the 9/10 capacity bar does.
Until recently, I would have been pretty sure 9 bars at "80%" charge indicated my battery had loss of capacity of ~10%.
But recent range tests, which seem to show no loss of range in my LEAF over the last 12 months, might indicate otherwise.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JPVLeaf
Well-known member
Greg, how many miles do you have? My 80% readings mirrors yours but my Leaf has 21k+ miles, spends weekdays inland, and all other times in OC. Also, so what are your latest Gid readings at 100%?GregH said:
edatoakrun
Well-known member
From previous page:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1226#p22547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
edatoakrun said:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1226#p22547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've been noticing that my "bars" seem to be dropping a little more quickly and using more for normal trips (i.e. commute). Because of my daily driving needs, I usually charge to 100%. Yesterday evening, I set the timer to 80%. Sure enough... Charging stopped at 80% with only 9 bars. I'm at 9 months and a little over 16,000 miles. I presume I should expect my first bar loss within the next few weeks to month? sk
leafkabob
Well-known member
skobay said:
Not necessarily. I got my car in May, 2011. In August, 2011 I noticed the 80%/9 bar trait. But in the fall and winter it went back to 10 bars at 80%. Then in the spring of 2012 it went back to 9/80%. Dropped my first bar in May, 2012. And all of that took place in Phoenix. You may go quite a while before you drop your first bar.
Stanton
Well-known member
Stoaty said:
That would be true if it were an "all or nothing" thing, and we don't know how badly Nissan wants that data long term. For sure, someone has to pay for that cellular connection to the car, whether it's us (via CarWings) or Nissan (if they really want the data). Having said that, I don't see why Nissan would continue to carry that cost if the owner is NOT paying for the subscription. Now we can debate the value of that subscription (to use things like Leaf Link), but that's for another thread.
smkettner
Well-known member
Been 9 bars for many days now.... this morning 10 bars :|
I assume the cells balanced last night.
I assume the cells balanced last night.
wsbca
Well-known member
drees said:
After our brief return to 10, we've also been back to 9 for a while, but the garage temp seems to have ticked back up during that time - I should probably get a thermometer in the garage as my assessment of that factor has just been by feel.
To invoke a 100% charge in such a way that it will do whatever balancing it wants to do up until the next unplug, I simply need to hit the timer override and let it go, right? (normal charges are on an end-only 80% timer set to be done by 5am.)
I haven't noticed any significant change in garage temp - I have a thermometer in mine that I watch (w/external and internal sensors) and it's typically been around 80-81F when I get home. I leave the side door open until I go to sleep, but doesn't help all that much - it might drop temps by 5F by midnight and outside temps at that time have been around 70F. When I leave in the morning the temp is around 75F so the temp holds steady through the night. I suspect that by this time of the year the slab has stored up a decent amount of heat.wsbca said:
Yes, hitting the timer override should do that. If you want to control the time it spends at 100% without having to go out and hit the button at a specific time, just change your timer to a 100% start-time. Personally, I wouldn't bother unless you know you want to make sure you have maximum range for a drive coming up soon - or if you're just curious to see what happens.wsbca said:
I tried a little experiment this morning - I hit the timer override and let it run for a few minutes before I left this morning - the Blink recorded 3m32s and 0.206 kWh.
Immediately I noticed that I had slightly less regen - only 4 bubbles that stuck the first 2 miles - normally I'll have 5 or the 5th will go on/off.
I had a couple stops on the way to work - first one ~2 miles out - turned the car back on and still had 10 bars. The 2nd one another 2 miles out - still had 10 bars. I didn't lose the 10th bar until somewhere between mile 7-8 of my commute in. Now remember that the first 5 miles is slightly downhill (noted between 6-7 mi/kWh at the first 2 stops), but at least once in the last couple weeks I've moved the car out of the garage and after a power cycle it's gone down to 9 bars. And 0.206 kWh even at 8 mi/kWh should only be good for 1.7 miles...
The gauges sure seem wonky to me - definitely hard to predict!
wsbca
Well-known member
drees said:
Just to clarify - did the couple of minutes of charging take you from a reported 9 bars on the email to 10 when you actually started up the car? Plus the regen behavior change?
I saw a very similar thing a few weeks ago, just a very slight top-up took me from the normal behavior of the 5th regen bubble disappearing temporarily near the bottom of our initial (1K, 10%) descent, to having the 4th bubble also unavailable. And, I think I went from 9 to 10 bars prior to startup. Based on what I've seen with bike light batteries, I think even a short burst of charging will bump the pack voltage up, in a sense relatively "more" than the amount of additional power that has actually been stored, and maybe that voltage triggers the regen threshold circuitry...but I'm out of my element when it comes to the details of that.
Anyway - I'd like to think we're just still on the threshold between 9 ("75%") and 10 ("83%") bars. In that, at the beginning, when we asked for 80%, it rounded to 10 bars because whatever internal value that is was closer to 83% of nominal full, and maybe now the internal value is more like 78-79% of nominal full, which is closer to 75, hence 9 bars. Rather than an entire bar being gone. Which fits with the 9th bar being pretty sturdy if it's the first bar of the day.
Well, I didn't power on the car to check before topping it off, but the charging stopped notification said 9/12 bars and it's never been wrong before. So yes, after the < 4 minutes of charging the car reported 10 bars - even after 4 miles of driving at appx 6-7 mi/kWh and 2 stops/power cycles.wsbca said:
:ugeek: I am the service director at a leaf certified dealer nissan dealer in Jacksonville, FL. We have a couple employees driving leafs and I have one coming in. I think that many of you are overthinking this issue. charge it, drive it, and use the heck out of it. The battery is guaranteed by Nissan to retain 80% capacity at 5 years. Drive the car and if it loses capacity, take it in and have your dealer cover it. That's what we do.
LEAFer
Well-known member
Oh dear :roll:RichLupo said:
Well ... if the Phoenix (and Texas, and ... and ...) cars are all welcome at your dealership to get replacement packs under warranty ... please commit so in writing ... we will arrange a caravan of car transporters as soon as we have your dealerships notarized guaranty. :!:
ttweed
Well-known member
Can you please point me to the specific portion of the Leaf warranty that guarantees 80% battery capacity at 5 years? If I could see that specific language in my warranty booklet, I would definitely stop "overthinking" this issue. The only relevant wording I have ever found is:RichLupo said:
GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion
batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time
and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting
from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this
warranty.
Thanks for your help. I'm sure a service director like yourself is far better informed than I am, and can point me to the relevant Nissan Leaf warranty coverage on battery capacity that I have overlooked. Looking forward to your answer.
TT
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