2013 August Plugin Sales Discussion : 50,000 EVs since 2011

[scottf200]

Basically, here is the problem. PHEVs are complex and expensive. People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

That would make sense if environmentalists were the main buyers of plug-in vehicles. But time and again the polls we've done here and over at GM-Volt have shown that environmentalists are only a small piece of the pie. Probably less than 20%. And as these cars become mainstream, that piece of the pie will shrink more and more as average people start to buy these cars. That's why I take every opportunity to send a message to Nissan and GM to stop trying to sell these cars to environmentalists because that will never lead to larger sales volume.

See the article I pointed to in a earlier post: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=322155#p322155" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

I manage projects at work I don't need one at home to manage our car driving with a optimistic new car 50-75 mile BEV that varies by driving, temp, and weather conditions. I don't think the general masses want to manage a car project/shuffle either. I know of a LEAF owner whose wife is totally annoyed with this aspect.

Once you get a BEV you will realize it doesn't take much to manage. Really, try it. You don't need a PMI certificate.

 

[Zythryn]

+1!

If you buy the right EV for your driving needs it actually requires much less planning than an ICE.

Personally, I plug in at night when I get home and unplug in the morning.
I NEVER have to stop on my way to a meeting or errand to refuel.
I never have to scold myself for forgetting to fill up with gas on the trip prior to going to a meeting in a suit and running the risk of spilling a drop of gas on my nice clothes and having an aroma of le-automobile on me all day.

The convenience of not being tied, in any way, to the pump is liberating and incredibly convenient.

 

[RegGuheert]

I expect long life from my P85 AWD Model X since they will allow me to charge to 65% and then daily drive it to 45%. (i.e. middle SOC = long life)

That sounds like how we use our LEAF today.

I don't know who we is...

"we" is my wife and me.

...or what you are trying to say.

I am trying to say that we use our LEAF by charging and discharging around the center of the SOC range. Like this morning, we charged it from 3 bars to 5 bars and discharged back to 3 bars on our drive to church. Other drives are handled similarly, with the discharge returning us to 30% SOC.

Looking forward to road trips, 70+ mile sporting events, etc on the weekend! (year around)

To each his own. Americans still haven't gotten the memo that purchasing 3X the vehicle they need to cover 95% of their needs to allow them to manage another 4% of their needs is extremely wasteful of resources, regardless of what type of fuel it uses. The reason your Model X will cost you significantly more than your Volt is that it took significantly more resources to manufacture it than your Volt. This is the same reason that the Volt costs signicantly more money than a LEAF.

You need EVs to be accepted by the masses and they are seeing your lips move but hearing blah blah blah. I hear you fine but I'm an early adopter as is evident by my 2011 Volt purchase and 2014 Model X purchase. I want to support companies that take this risk. It co$t me no doubt but I've come to grips with that.

The masses need a form of transportatiowhy hat meets their needs and is affordable. As fossil fuel prices continue to rise (or spike up), the masses will tune in and decide which of the options suit them best.

While I will acknowledge that the LEAF does not address the needs of some Americans, it can certainly address the needs of MOST Americans. The biggest issue with the LEAF is not the capacity of the battery, but rather the loss of capacity of the battery. That issue still needs to be resolved if the LEAF is to truly be friendly to the environment (at least in some climates.).

Personally I think the LEAF battery problem is a disaster and will bite their car sales as well as chademo and they way Nissan has treated early adopters is deplorable.

History will judge Nissan as it sees fit.

 

[GRA]

Personally I think the LEAF battery problem is a disaster and will bite their car sales as well as chademo and they way Nissan has treated early adopters is deplorable.

History will judge Nissan as it sees fit.

Before history has its say, Nissan's current, potential and especially ex-customers will have theirs. And the latter group is going to be very vocal, with excellent reason.

 

[scottf200]

To each his own. Americans still haven't gotten the memo that purchasing 3X the vehicle they need to cover 95% of their needs to allow them to manage another 4% of their needs is extremely wasteful of resources, regardless of what type of fuel it uses. The reason your Model X will cost you significantly more than your Volt is that it took significantly more resources to manufacture it than your Volt. This is the same reason that the Volt costs signicantly more money than a LEAF.

You need EVs to be accepted by the masses and they are seeing your lips move but hearing blah blah blah. I hear you fine but I'm an early adopter as is evident by my 2011 Volt purchase and 2014 Model X purchase. I want to support companies that take this risk. It co$t me no doubt but I've come to grips with that.

The masses need a form of transportation [t]hat meets their needs and is affordable. As fossil fuel prices continue to rise (or spike up), the masses will tune in and decide which of the options suit them best.

I hear what you are saying and I used to say/believe that. The masses are not motivated by these "minor" things. European gas prices maybe. See these monthly figures. They are OK with lower monthly payments (or leasing new every couple years!) and the growing higher MPG vehicles.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/08/usa-car-sales-rankings-by-model-july-2013-ytd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

Before history has its say, Nissan's current, potential and especially ex-customers will have theirs. And the latter group is going to be very vocal, with excellent reason.

I think for every one disgruntled ex-customer there are a dozen happy Leaf customers.

 

[surfingslovak]

I came to this thread thinking that I will be able to get a glimpse of possibly the best plugin sales numbers to date. It appears that we are having another PHEV vs BEV discussion. Doesn't that get old?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Any of these vehicles will be successful is sold cheaply enough. GM is having a firesale on the Volt with prices as low as 31k before the $7500 tax rebate. At that rate its not much more than the Cruze its based on. GM must be losing a good bit of money on it with all the complexity of a ICE and EV in the same package. If GM can succeed in being remotely profitable at a reasonable price while improving space utilization and electric range, maybe they'll have something to brag about. Ultimately BEVs is where we're heading. Not clear the PHEVs are a necessary step in that process. Having a BEV like the Leaf for all the around town shuttling, and a traditional ICE for rare longer trips is a combination that can work for many.
I think Elon is right and we need a 200 mile range BEV thats more affordable. I'm hoping Nissan will improve the range on the 2015 Leaf to be over 100 EPA range. The Volt having gas range never sounds like a selling point to me. Too easy to counter with ICEs that have better range. Why bother with a PHEV if you just want range. Lots of extra machinery taking up space to carry around all the time. Clearly a temporary band aid. Best to rip it off rather than tease at the edges. If you want to go electric, just do it. Tesla, Leaf can do it today. It works. Its awesome.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I came to this thread thinking that I will be able to get a glimpse of possibly the best plugin sales numbers to date. It appears that we are having another PHEV vs BEV discussion. Doesn't that get old?

Title is Leaf & Volt. Sounds like the title is BEV vs. PHEV. What do you expect? Volt sales are a record due to barnburner pricing. Leaf sales unimpressive with constrained manufacturing. We'll find out for sure in a couple of days.

 

[scottf200]

I came to this thread thinking that I will be able to get a glimpse of possibly the best plugin sales numbers to date. It appears that we are having another PHEV vs BEV discussion. Doesn't that get old?

Title: August Best Selling Month Ever For EVs <snip.
http://insideevs.com/august-best-selling-month-ever-for-evs-chevy-volt-to-be-first-plug-in-to-pass-3000-mark/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I blame the thread starter/moderator

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way

 

[Boomer23]

Any of these vehicles will be successful is sold cheaply enough. GM is having a firesale on the Volt with prices as low as 31k before the $7500 tax rebate. At that rate its not much more than the Cruze its based on. GM must be losing a good bit of money on it with all the complexity of a ICE and EV in the same package. If GM can succeed in being remotely profitable at a reasonable price while improving space utilization and electric range, maybe they'll have something to brag about. Ultimately BEVs is where we're heading. Not clear the PHEVs are a necessary step in that process. Having a BEV like the Leaf for all the around town shuttling, and a traditional ICE for rare longer trips is a combination that can work for many.
I think Elon is right and we need a 200 mile range BEV thats more affordable. I'm hoping Nissan will improve the range on the 2015 Leaf to be over 100 EPA range. The Volt having gas range never sounds like a selling point to me. Too easy to counter with ICEs that have better range. Why bother with a PHEV if you just want range. Lots of extra machinery taking up space to carry around all the time. Clearly a temporary band aid. Best to rip it off rather than tease at the edges. If you want to go electric, just do it. Tesla, Leaf can do it today. It works. Its awesome.

The magic with the Volt is the AER of 40 plus miles, combined with 400 mile range (appx). For our family, almost 100% of our routine miles could be electric with a combination of a Volt and a LEAF, and we'd still be able to do the rare longer trips with the Volt. An alternate combination that could work would be two EVs and a rented ICE, with the rental possibly provided by the maker of one of the EVs through some program. Either way, scheduling that ICE would involve some hassle, and impromptu long trips would be problematic, perhaps. Of course, with the LEAF having CHAdeMO, it is becoming increasingly possible, if not as convenient, to use the LEAF for some of the intermediate distance trips.

That's the role that the PHEV would fill in my scenario. Right now, we're doing it with a LEAF and a Prius, but I'd rather have a Volt instead of the Prius.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

The magic with the Volt is the AER of 40 plus miles, combined with 400 mile range (appx). For our family, almost 100% of our routine miles could be electric with a combination of a Volt and a LEAF, and we'd still be able to do the rare longer trips with the Volt. An alternate combination that could work would be two EVs and a rented ICE, with the rental possibly provided by the maker of one of the EVs through some program. Either way, scheduling that ICE would involve some hassle, and impromptu long trips would be problematic, perhaps. Of course, with the LEAF having CHAdeMO, it is becoming increasingly possible, if not as convenient, to use the LEAF for some of the intermediate distance trips.

That's the role that the PHEV would fill in my scenario. Right now, we're doing it with a LEAF and a Prius, but I'd rather have a Volt instead of the Prius.

The Volt has limited interior and cargo space due to the ICE drivetrain that makes it cramped for long trips w a family of four. The Model X seems like an intriguing alternative to our minivan. Electric range and space and performance. What more could you ask for, other than a lower price.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The magic with the Volt is the AER of 40 plus miles, combined with 400 mile range (appx). For our family, almost 100% of our routine miles could be electric with a combination of a Volt and a LEAF, and we'd still be able to do the rare longer trips with the Volt. An alternate combination that could work would be two EVs and a rented ICE, with the rental possibly provided by the maker of one of the EVs through some program. Either way, scheduling that ICE would involve some hassle, and impromptu long trips would be problematic, perhaps. Of course, with the LEAF having CHAdeMO, it is becoming increasingly possible, if not as convenient, to use the LEAF for some of the intermediate distance trips.

That's the role that the PHEV would fill in my scenario. Right now, we're doing it with a LEAF and a Prius, but I'd rather have a Volt instead of the Prius.

For a two driver family, with routine trips within the LEAF and Volt electric ranges, LEAF + Volt makes sense, assuming that the small size of the Volt will work for the long trips. For a one driver household (yes, they exist) LEAF + Prius or some sort of ICE rental option would work. For a one car household the Volt seems like a good compromise for those trying to drive electric as much as possible.

This assumes that one doesn't need 4WD or AWD for difficult driving conditions, as I do.

The Volt has limited interior and cargo space due to the ICE drivetrain that makes it cramped for long long trips w a family of four. The Model X seems like an intriguing alternative to our minivan. Electric range and space and performance. What more could you ask for, other than a lower price.

If price was no object there would be no need for a LEAF because we could all drive the model S or X! It certainly isn't the world I live in.

I do wonder if the model X will be Jeep-road capable. I presume that it won't, not that I could ever afford one.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way :lol:

Looks like BEVs are selling better than PHEVs in California, likely even with the Volt's 2013 clearance sale. We'll see if the Volt catches up with the lower 2014 price.

http://insideevs.com/in-california-electric-vehicles-grab-1-1-of-automotive-market-in-first-half-of-2013-plug-in-hybrids-take-0-7/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

Title: August Best Selling Month Ever For EVs <snip.
http://insideevs.com/august-best-selling-month-ever-for-evs-chevy-volt-to-be-first-plug-in-to-pass-3000-mark/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I blame the thread starter/moderator

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way

Thanks so much, Scott! I will look for the final number when its ready.

It was completely unnecessary to incite such a debate again. Musks recent comments did not help, I'm sure, but at least he can say that he was helping to further his company's public perception by encouraging competitors to build better cars.

 

[evnow]

I blame the thread starter/moderator

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way

My question is directly related to sales numbers. There are some folks here who want to bicker and instead of finding honest answers

 

[evnow]

Title is Leaf & Volt. Sounds like the title is BEV vs. PHEV. What do you expect?

No it doesn't sound like BEV vs PHEV. Leaf & Volt have been the largest selling plugins for 2 years - and the title has been like that for more than 2 years.

 

[Jay]

Everyone is just thrown off having to wait the extra couple days and are passing the time, (=

 

[scottf200]

Everyone is just thrown off having to wait the extra couple days and are passing the time, (=

We kids are just restless here in the backseat on this long drive.

I blame the thread starter/moderator

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way

My question is directly related to sales numbers. There are some folks here who want to bicker and instead of finding honest answers

When sales are questioned the obvious next step is why and you know it where that leads. Your and instigator. Just fess up!