2013 August Plugin Sales Discussion : 50,000 EVs since 2011

[evnow]

BTW, according to our LEAF salesperson (now sales manager), they count sales for August through Tuesday next week.

That is correct.

http://www.motorintelligence.com/fileopen.asp?File=SR_SalesCal6.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

~3,300 for the Volt in Aug 2013

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-autos-gm-reuss-20130831,0,5298129.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the Volt plug-in hybrid, the showcase car for GM's technology, starting to catch on with consumers?
Well, we are having a great month. We will do about 3,300 Volt sales this month. Our previous best was 2,800.

Hat tip to davidm23 gm-volt

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

BTW, according to our LEAF salesperson (now sales manager), they count sales for August through Tuesday next week.

That is correct.

http://www.motorintelligence.com/fileopen.asp?File=SR_SalesCal6.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

well that should boost the numbers!

 

[DaveEV]

~3,300 for the Volt in Aug 2013

Nice - dropping the MSRP to < $35k really boosted the numbers as expected.

Now if they can get the price down under $30k they will really move some volume.

 

[scottf200]

~3,300 for the Volt in Aug 2013

Nice - dropping the MSRP to < $35k really boosted the numbers as expected.
Now if they can get the price down under $30k they will really move some volume.

Not sure that is all that is going on here. After all look at the prices of the LEAFs and sales.

 

[evnow]

Not sure that is all that is going on here. After all look at the prices of the LEAFs and sales.

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way :lol:

 

[scottf200]

Not sure that is all that is going on here. After all look at the prices of the LEAFs and sales.

Everyone expected PHEVs to vastly outsell EVs. Definitely hasn't worked out that way [yet]

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.
I expect long life from my P85 AWD Model X since they will allow me to charge to 65% and then daily drive it to 45%. (i.e. middle SOC = long life)
Looking forward to road trips, 70+ mile sporting events, etc on the weekend! (year around)

 

[evnow]

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.

There were several PHEVs that were supposed to do well. Well, you know how it is turning out.

Basically, here is the problem. PHEVs are complex and expensive. People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

 

[GRA]

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.

There were several PHEVs that were supposed to do well. Well, you know how it is turning out.

Basically, here is the problem. PHEVs are complex and expensive. People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

I think it's an entirely different issue. While many of the environmental types would prefer a BEV, lots of them buy Priuses/Escape hybrids/TDI Sportwagens etc. And the whole point of PHEVs is that their market isn't limited to the greens.

I think the reason PHEVs have had a problem gaining traction is that aside from the Volt (mostly), the others have all been too compromised and/or expensive. Fisker is a special case as no one could perceive it as green, and many of their problems were beyond their control. The Accord is way overpriced, and the Fusion is at the high end for what you get. The PiP is a joke.

Many of us had high hopes for the C-Max Energi, but its minuscule cargo space eliminates it from contention for much of the green outdoorsy crowd, and many others. I've said it before, but I'll borrow one of Tony's bits and say that the car's advertising slogan should be "The Ford C-Max Energi, the car that takes the 'U' out of CUV."(TM) And then there's the Outlander, which has had battery and other QC issues but is the brightest star of the horizon for many of us. The ELR market is a different crowd, and I have no idea if there's a niche for them under Tesla.

So the Volt's been pretty much the only (and best) PHEV game in town (Volvo V60s not being available in the US) for many, and the price decrease is a big help. But for those who want/need a small wagon/CUV and/or five seats the Volt's not an option, and the somewhat tunnel-like view doesn't help. Give us a different body style and the option of AWD and there'd be plenty of customers, at least until Tesla's Gen 3 or something similar comes along at a reasonable price.

 

[scottf200]

PHEVs are complex and expensive.

I've done 1 oil change in 2.5 yrs on my Volt. With high regen not sure when to replace brakes. With 7K miles on the ICE in 2.5yrs not sure when I need anything beside oil because of age. 2.8K miles / yr

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.

<snip>
People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

Ridiculous broad stroke you just brushed about the environment:
Title: Why Men Love Their Tesla Model S Electric Cars
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086605_why-men-love-their-tesla-model-s-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to Strategic Vision’s New Vehicle Experience Study, Tesla Motors [NSDQ: TSLA] has cultivated a strong following of men through its emphasis on performance.
The study found that Tesla has 29 percent fewer female owners than the average luxury brand, 10 percent fewer than the average electric car nameplate, and around 14 percent fewer than two other popular choices in the luxury segment, the BMW 5-Series and Mercedes-Benz CLS.
Tesla owners also expressed "Love" for their cars' "Overall Vehicle Experience" at a rate 20 percent higher than other plug-in electric car buyers.
Analysts believe this is because Tesla pitches the Model S as both an electric car and a performance car.
Unlike other green car buyers, Tesla owners considered performance to be more important than being green, or than energy efficiency.
Ninety percent of Tesla owners listed performance--specifically “Handling and Cornering"--as their top priority.
In contrast, 94 percent of Nissan Leaf owners said fuel economy (or, more properly, energy efficiency) was their top priority.

And then there's the Outlander, which has had battery and other QC issues but is the brightest star of the horizon for many of us.

Serious potential there.

 

[GRA]

And then there's the Outlander, which has had battery and other QC issues but is the brightest star of the horizon for many of us.

Serious potential there.

And let's not forget that there will be several production FCEVs introduced in 2015-2017, with California leading the way on infrastructure (surprise, surprise, surprise). Companies have been decreasing the amount of or eliminating altogether the platinum in the catalyst, as well as boosting the power density since the last generation - Toyota claims they're getting 3 times the power density in the new gen.

I expect we'll see Tesla S-like prices for starters (but see http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516711/why-toyota-and-gm-are-pushing-fuel-cell-cars-to-market/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). Even so, having road-trip range with comparable-to-gas refueling times out of the box should provide a good-sized market. Unlike some here, I don't believe that the automakers are investing billions in fuel cells just to meet the minimum CARB requirements. If these cars can be built and sold at a reasonable price, with H2 produced at forecourt plants by renewables, we'll avoid most of the need to build urban PEV charging infrastructure for multi-unit and/or garage-less urban dwellers. Perhaps something like this will break the electrolysis price barrier:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/08/20130830-jcap.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

I've done 1 oil change in 2.5 yrs on my Volt. With high regen not sure when to replace brakes. With 7K miles on the ICE in 2.5yrs not sure when I need anything beside oil because of age. 2.8K miles / yr

Did you mean to respond to someone else ? Your response makes zero sense.

 

[scottf200]

PHEVs are complex and expensive.

People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

I've done 1 oil change in 2.5 yrs on my Volt. With high regen not sure when to replace brakes. With 7K miles on the ICE in 2.5yrs not sure when I need anything beside oil because of age. 2.8K miles / yr

Did you mean to respond to someone else ? Your response makes zero sense.

Nice job on avoiding the other points/post :lol: Well played.

It is very very common that people often point out the ICE adds expensive repairs and maintenance cost. I updated my previous post show the response. Sorry for the confusion. Certainly you were also talking about the initial cost but that isn't necessarily true either. I don't need an extra car to handle the > 50 or 60 mile cases in my weekends (and occasional weekday).

I've lost track of how many LEAF and Volt households there are. Another today: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=322177#p322177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Seeing a lot of multiple Volt households too. Since I don't buy cars that often I'm holding out for another option (ie. the Model X).

 

[RegGuheert]

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.

Tesla is saving WHAT day? I agree they are saving their shareholders' days, but they are not saving the environment with heavy, expensive, EVs that waste 3kWh/day even when not driven. Frankly, the Model S is one of the most wasteful cars on the road today in terms of lifetime resources consumed.

I expect long life from my P85 AWD Model X since they will allow me to charge to 65% and then daily drive it to 45%. (i.e. middle SOC = long life)

That sounds like how we use our LEAF today.

Looking forward to road trips, 70+ mile sporting events, etc on the weekend! (year around)

To each his own. Americans still haven't gotten the memo that purchasing 3X the vehicle they need to cover 95% of their needs to allow them to manage another 4% of their needs is extremely wasteful of resources, regardless of what type of fuel it uses. The reason your Model X will cost you significantly more than your Volt is that it took significantly more resources to manufacture it than your Volt. This is the same reason that the Volt costs signicantly more money than a LEAF.

While I will acknowledge that the LEAF does not address the needs of some Americans, it can certainly address the needs of MOST Americans. The biggest issue with the LEAF is not the capacity of the battery, but rather the loss of capacity of the battery. That issue still needs to be resolved if the LEAF is to truly be friendly to the environment (at least in some climates.).

 

[DaveEV]

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.

Tesla is saving WHAT day? I agree they are saving their shareholders' days, but they are not saving the environment with heavy, expensive, EVs that waste 3kWh/day even when not driven. Frankly, the Model S is one of the most wasteful cars on the road today in terms of lifetime resources consumed.

I think saying it's the most wasteful is an exaggeration, but for sure, the vampire power draw alone is huge and unfortunately it's not reflected in EPA measurements.

3 kWh/day might actually be a bit low - some people have documented 4-5 kWh/day (from the wall), though the latest 5.0 firmware starting to roll out is supposed to cut it in half (maybe to the 3 kWh/day?). I am averaging at least 3.5 mi/kWh from the wall in my LEAF - the vampire loss alone in the Model S would be enough to drive nearly 4,000 miles/year.

The Volt has some vampire loss in hot weather to keep the battery cool if plugged in, but IIRC it wasn't anything close to 3 kWh/day. The only way to minimize vampire losses in the Model S is to make sure you drive it a lot - at the very least it appears that a lot of Model S owners tend to be people who drive a lot so at least for those people vampire losses aren't quite as big a deal.

The Model S is a great halo EV - but it still has a number of shortcomings to address. I still want one!

 

[adric22]

Basically, here is the problem. PHEVs are complex and expensive. People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

That would make sense if environmentalists were the main buyers of plug-in vehicles. But time and again the polls we've done here and over at GM-Volt have shown that environmentalists are only a small piece of the pie. Probably less than 20%. And as these cars become mainstream, that piece of the pie will shrink more and more as average people start to buy these cars. That's why I take every opportunity to send a message to Nissan and GM to stop trying to sell these cars to environmentalists because that will never lead to larger sales volume.

We have a Leaf and Volt. But in a few months we're going to let the Leaf return to Nissan after the lease is up and get a 2014 Volt. So we'll be a 2-Volt household. As I've mentioned before, my reasons for switching to a Volt have little to do with range or battery degradation, and everything to do with aesthetics.

 

[evnow]

Basically, here is the problem. PHEVs are complex and expensive. People who care about the environment and such would rather buy BEV than one more car with an ICE.

That would make sense if environmentalists were the main buyers of plug-in vehicles.

You missed the highlighted part. Essentially anyone buying the cars for things like "coolness" or "geekiness" included.

...my reasons for switching to a Volt have little to do with range or battery degradation, and everything to do with aesthetics.

Interesting you say that. To me internal aesthetics is very important (as that is what I see) - and Volt looks downright cluttered and gawdy. I like the simple and clean layout of Leaf a lot more.

 

[evnow]

I don't need an extra car to handle the > 50 or 60 mile cases in my weekends (and occasional weekday).

Are you a single car household ? Otherwise the best option is to get a BEV and a PHEV. Use the PHEV to go long distance and BEV for the longer commute. (or splurge on a Tesla)

Unfortunately no good PHEVs that meet our requirement exists. If Volt was a CUV I'd have already bought it (assuming my wife could get over her mistrust of domestics). Hopefully outlander or i3 w/REx will work.

But - this is not what I was talking about earlier (and also back on topic). If you see any of the forecasts - you will see most of them predicting order of magnitude more PHEVs than BEVs. What happened ?

 

[scottf200]

Thankfully Tesla is saving the day. 75 mile BEVs are not.

Tesla is saving WHAT day? I agree they are saving their shareholders' days, but they are not saving the environment with heavy, expensive, EVs that waste 3kWh/day even when not driven. Frankly, the Model S is one of the most wasteful cars on the road today in terms of lifetime resources consumed.

Back the Via motors truck up. EVNow and I were just exchanging some friend jabs (we are all for more electric miles driving right). He like to to point out the BEV vs PHEV race and I was clarifying that I think that Tesla has done a LOT more for the public perception of BEVs and acceptance than the 75 mile BEVs. In general the public/masses do not accept them even with you showing them the spreedsheet or Tony's range chart. So Tesla will make BEV numbers and public acceptance raise more than the 75 mile BEVs ... hence the saving the day comment. HTH.

I expect long life from my P85 AWD Model X since they will allow me to charge to 65% and then daily drive it to 45%. (i.e. middle SOC = long life)

That sounds like how we use our LEAF today.

I don't know who we is or what you are trying to say. Using 45-65% SOC in a 85kWh Tesla gets about 53 miles using the EPA 265 number and keeps the SOC in the optimum longevity range. Plus 65% is about 172 miles while will handle emergencies or change of plans in the middle of the day. Meeting friends for dinner or a sporting activity.

Looking forward to road trips, 70+ mile sporting events, etc on the weekend! (year around)

To each his own. Americans still haven't gotten the memo that purchasing 3X the vehicle they need to cover 95% of their needs to allow them to manage another 4% of their needs is extremely wasteful of resources, regardless of what type of fuel it uses. The reason your Model X will cost you significantly more than your Volt is that it took significantly more resources to manufacture it than your Volt. This is the same reason that the Volt costs signicantly more money than a LEAF.

You need EVs to be accepted by the masses and they are seeing your lips move but hearing blah blah blah. I hear you fine but I'm an early adopter as is evident by my 2011 Volt purchase and 2014 Model X purchase. I want to support companies that take this risk. It co$t me no doubt but I've come to grips with that.

While I will acknowledge that the LEAF does not address the needs of some Americans, it can certainly address the needs of MOST Americans. The biggest issue with the LEAF is not the capacity of the battery, but rather the loss of capacity of the battery. That issue still needs to be resolved if the LEAF is to truly be friendly to the environment (at least in some climates.).

Personally I think the LEAF battery problem is a disaster and will bite their car sales as well as chademo and they way Nissan has treated early adopters is deplorable.

Good comments though by everyone. It is fun and satisfying to be part of a early new stage of development. *EV and the forums are a great hobby.

 

[scottf200]

I don't need an extra car to handle the > 50 or 60 mile cases in my weekends (and occasional weekday).

Are you a single car household ? Otherwise the best option is to get a BEV and a PHEV. Use the PHEV to go long distance and BEV for the longer commute. (or splurge on a Tesla)

Our ICE and PHEV get used at the same time. I am working on the PHEV (Volt) and BEV (Model X) goal. I manage projects at work I don't need one at home to manage our car driving with a optimistic new car 50-75 mile BEV that varies by driving, temp, and weather conditions. I don't think the general masses want to manage a car project/shuffle either. I know of a LEAF owner whose wife is totally annoyed with this aspect.