114 miles to Long Beach, California, and 114 to San Diego

[johnr]

Now I understand Nissan wanted to keep the base cost low and I am fine with that, but some us would be willing to pay for a faster on board charger. The J1772 spec allows for up to 80 amps max.

Nissan should have 3 options for on board charger small, medium and large. This would be 25 amp, 50 amp and 75 amp.

Have you considered that perhaps Nissan was worried about battery life?

If occasional quick-charging at about 40KW is permissible, and it is, then I suspect that even at 80 amps, battery life wouldn't be much of a concern. (At 80 amps, that's only 19KW.) But if all they do is double the current limit of its built-in level 2 charger to accept 32 amps, then it would be a huge improvement. It would cut charging time in half - and this would still be less than 8KW.

 

[Caracalover]

The 100 miles that I drove last was my longest run ever leg ever. It's not insignificant to do, as the Nissan ads toss around that 100 number.

Exactly.. Nissan isn't doing themselves any favors with the "100 miles" myth. That's just going to disappoint people.

I tell people "It will reliably go 60 miles, more if you stay in the slow lane."

I thought the 100 mile test was a european range test cycle. Many places do not have the high speed corridors we Americans are sometimes forced to use. With no high speed driving (above 45) 100 miles is likely easy, especially on flat ground.

I tell people if you jack rabbit start, dirve 70+ miles an hour, and don't plan your stops at all, you might only get 60 miles out of it, but most people will get around 80 without seeing a low battery warning.

I don't like to say anything like "stay in the slow lane" since they hear that and think the car is slow, which it isn't. Better to say if you drive economically you can go further. It may take a little longer to get there, but hey, it is gas and oil free, so it is worth it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

With no high speed driving (above 45) 100 miles is likely easy, especially on flat ground.

I tell people if you jack rabbit start, dirve 70+ miles an hour, and don't plan your stops at all, you might only get 60 miles out of it, but most people will get around 80 without seeing a low battery warning.

I disagree. My MAX speed on this 100 mile return leg was 45mph. There was no reserve, as I started at 100% and drove in my garage in turtle.

You're not factoring any of the variables that can affect range, and leaving no reserve. Most people will not, and do not (in the USA) get 80 miles before Low Battery. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

 

[JimSouCal]

With no high speed driving (above 45) 100 miles is likely easy, especially on flat ground.

I tell people if you jack rabbit start, dirve 70+ miles an hour, and don't plan your stops at all, you might only get 60 miles out of it, but most people will get around 80 without seeing a low battery warning.

I disagree. My MAX speed on this 100 mile return leg was 45mph. There was no reserve, as I started at 100% and drove in my garage in turtle.

You're not factoring any of the variables that can affect range, and leaving no reserve. Most people will not, and do not (in the USA) get 80 miles before Low Battery. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Concur here. I am lucky, as most (95%) of my needs would be met with half the capacity of the current battery. And I bought the car thinking, they are saying up to a 100 miles range, and let's just discount that by half. and like that, I am pleased.

I do very much appreciate the work you have put into field verification and the resulting range chart. I keep it in the car for those times when I may be close to the edge, as if I was piloting an airplane...

 

[CWO4Mann]

And people wonder why mainstream consumers haven't jumped on-board BEVs Seriously, Tony, while I applaud the explorer in you (I've done my share of "just to see if I can"), I've got to ask if you see this as an efficient use of your time? Sure, it can be done, but why would anyone other than the most dedicated EV fanatic want to, when there are so many quicker ways to get there? After all, the reason most people buy cars is because they provide, quick, convenient, spontaneous transportation for themselves, their passengers and their stuff - they don't want to plan a trip like yours as if they were setting off across the Mojave desert in a jeep.

Sour grapes perhaps, but GRA makes a fair statement in light of what the regular car driver would perhaps say. He could ask the same question about my Porsche 928-S; yes it will (and has) travelled at a very steady 165 miles per hour; it might get 12 miles to the gallon of premium if I didn't have a lead foot, etc. etc. However, why do I have it around? Well, mainly because it is indeed a classic high performance car, but also just because "I want to drive it every so often". I mean, really, our friend Tony has done a really good deed for all of us, and for himself too .. an enjoyable drive with some challenges, but everything came up roses in the end. Tony is to be applauded for his drive and for his report.

You know, when I was a kid, my parents would take car trips in our 1938 Lincoln and a huge lunch basket of food and drinks; canvas water bags across the front of the car. We would head out from San Diego and up the mountain to Jacumba, where my dad had been a deputy sheriff prior to WW2, stop at the old Jacumba Hotel which was a wreck; doing some .22 rifle shooting out back of the hotel's hot springs area, then down the Carizo Gorge road to Plaster City where my folks had friends owned one of the cement factories. The trip back up the mountains always meant stopping several times and filling the radiator and then the water jugs from some of the spring water outlets along the side of the road. The bottom line is that we all had a great adventure and got back home tired and happy.

Sounds to me like Tony and his son arrived home tired and happy!

 

[GRA]

And people wonder why mainstream consumers haven't jumped on-board BEVs Seriously, Tony, while I applaud the explorer in you (I've done my share of "just to see if I can"), I've got to ask if you see this as an efficient use of your time? Sure, it can be done, but why would anyone other than the most dedicated EV fanatic want to, when there are so many quicker ways to get there? After all, the reason most people buy cars is because they provide, quick, convenient, spontaneous transportation for themselves, their passengers and their stuff - they don't want to plan a trip like yours as if they were setting off across the Mojave desert in a jeep.

Sour grapes perhaps, but GRA makes a fair statement in light of what the regular car driver would perhaps say.

No sour grapes involved, just pointing out the view of mainstream consumers. I was selling AE systems and had EV owners as customers two decades ago, and rented a Think for a week in the late '90s, so it's not as if I'm unfamiliar with the technology's advantages and limitations. My personal opinion is that mainstream consumers won't adopt BEVs in large numbers until they can afford one with a guaranteed triple-digit range under the worst case conditions they're likely to encounter; that they won't adopt them en masse until they provide a 200 mile range ditto; and they won't almost entirely replace ICEs until they can go at least 300 miles, worst case. In the meantime we've got hybrids/PHEVs, diesels, high-mileage ICEs, biofuels, CNG etc. to ease the transition.

I would love to be able to justify an EV for myself, but since I'm a renter in a single-car household and none of the BEVs currently on offer meets my needs in range, price or both, plus the infrastructure is lacking, it makes no sense for me to buy/lease one now. A PHEV like the Volt comes closer, but since I don't commute by car and use my car almost exclusively for out-of town trips, I can't justify it either. Only the highest mileage ICE or hybrid makes sense, right now, but since they provide relatively little advantage over what I'm currently driving I'll keep what I have and await developments.

He could ask the same question about my Porsche 928-S; yes it will (and has) travelled at a very steady 165 miles per hour; it might get 12 miles to the gallon of premium if I didn't have a lead foot, etc. etc. However, why do I have it around? Well, mainly because it is indeed a classic high performance car, but also just because "I want to drive it every so often". I mean, really, our friend Tony has done a really good deed for all of us, and for himself too .. an enjoyable drive with some challenges, but everything came up roses in the end. Tony is to be applauded for his drive and for his report.

I would never question why someone keeps a 928 around; a friend of mine used to own one, although I never got to drive it But I have been able to drive the M3 convertible, 650i, and Honda S2000 he's also owned at various times, so I guess it evens out

You know, when I was a kid, my parents would take car trips in our 1938 Lincoln and a huge lunch basket of food and drinks; canvas water bags across the front of the car. We would head out from San Diego and up the mountain to Jacumba, where my dad had been a deputy sheriff prior to WW2, stop at the old Jacumba Hotel which was a wreck; doing some .22 rifle shooting out back of the hotel's hot springs area, then down the Carizo Gorge road to Plaster City where my folks had friends owned one of the cement factories. The trip back up the mountains always meant stopping several times and filling the radiator and then the water jugs from some of the spring water outlets along the side of the road. The bottom line is that we all had a great adventure and got back home tired and happy.

Sounds to me like Tony and his son arrived home tired and happy!

 

[Caracalover]

With no high speed driving (above 45) 100 miles is likely easy, especially on flat ground.

I tell people if you jack rabbit start, dirve 70+ miles an hour, and don't plan your stops at all, you might only get 60 miles out of it, but most people will get around 80 without seeing a low battery warning.

I disagree. My MAX speed on this 100 mile return leg was 45mph. There was no reserve, as I started at 100% and drove in my garage in turtle.

You're not factoring any of the variables that can affect range, and leaving no reserve. Most people will not, and do not (in the USA) get 80 miles before Low Battery. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I read your story, and you did coast up to 60 MPH at one point. You noticed a better range when you dropped to 38, and that is faster than you can drive in many places in Europe, which was my point, you edited that part of my quote out. When I said no high speed driving, I envisioned the streets of old european cities, where traffic prevents you from getting to 45 very often and the roads are so narrow that 30 is often tough. You drove in Amerca, on roads designed for high speed travel. Try the no freeway routes. I have and feel confident I could go further than 100 miles, although I have not done it. I did get 97 with one hour of L2 with many miles (30?) at 65 mph on a cold rainy day with hail recently, and yes I used the heater off and on. I did have a net elevation loss on that trip, so not apples to apples but it is an indicator of why Nissan could use that number. I have also done 81 miles and while I did get the first low battery warning, I drove freeway speeds (Tried to stay with slower traffic, nothing over 60) with an elevation gain of about 1500' for the last 30 or so miles (From Port of Los Angeles to Altadena). Had I driven slower, I wonder just how much range I might have gained. Americans enjoy good roads that allow for high speed travel, and that is hard on any vehicle in terms of energy need. Difference with an EV is if you choose the slower multiple stop route, you can go further since you don't waste much energy waiting for the light to change. Truly cruise with this car sometime, rather than just use it to go from point A to point B and you will see what I mean.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I read your story, and you did coast up to 60 MPH at one point. You noticed a better range when you dropped to 38, and that is faster than you can drive in many places in Europe, which was my point, you edited that part of my quote out.

Coasting in NEUTRAL at 60mph uses less power than D or ECO mode driving at 38mph. Actually, any speed coasting in neutral is better than any speed in D or ECO. At no time under power extracted from the battery was the car going 60mph on this trip. I did not "notice" a better range at 38mph over 60mph coasting. I slowed because that is the logical thing to do to increase range, and running the heater was making that contingency necessary over the planned (and driven up until that point) 45mph.

When I said no high speed driving, I envisioned the streets of old european cities, where traffic prevents you from getting to 45 very often and the roads are so narrow that 30 is often tough. You drove in Amerca, on roads designed for high speed travel. Try the no freeway routes. I have and feel confident I could go further than 100 miles, although I have not done it.

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. So, while you haven't done it, you feel compelled to pontificate to me how it should be. Thanks. On this trip that I took, please describe which non-freeway route you propose between San Diego County and Los Angeles County. When I next visit Europe, and happen to have an electric car, I'll keep your points in mind. Thanks.

I did get 97with one hour of L2 with many miles (30?) at 65 mph on a cold rainy day with hail recently, and yes I used the heater off and on.

What is the purpose of suggesting how "easy" 100 miles is to drive, and then offering how you recharged for an hour to come up short of 100 miles? It sounds like a great plan, though; just drive any number of miles, and recharge, and drive some more. You can have any range you want.

but it is an indicator of why Nissan could use that number.

100 miles is a marketing number. That's why you drive 5 miles from a full charge, and the GuessOmeter then shows some other far lower range prediction than 100-5. It sells cars that saying the car has a 73 EPA range wouldn't.

I have also done 81 miles and while I did get the first low battery warning, I drove freeway speeds (Tried to stay with slower traffic, nothing over 60) with an elevation gain of about 1500' for the last 30 or so miles (From Port of Los Angeles to Altadena). Had I driven slower, I wonder just how much range I might have gained.

I've been to both battery warnings more times than I could relate. Many dozens of times. 11 times to Turtle mode. Twice to a complete stop. While I appreciate your vigor to tell us how easy 100 miles is, the fact is, YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT ONCE. I don't "guess" very much on how much range I might gain; I generally have plotted and calculated that.

Difference with an EV is if you choose the slower multiple stop route, you can go further since you don't waste much energy waiting for the light to change. Truly cruise with this car sometime, rather than just use it to go from point A to point B and you will see what I mean.

No, I don't know what you mean, because you are WRONG. The car does NOT get better economy by stopping and accelerating to a speed than it does by driving at that steady state speed without stops.

 

[electricfuture]

Great post Tony. Maybe we can petition the Corp to put an L3 charger - like the one Nissan is selling for $10,000 in Pendleton. If Nissan would put another at a dealership in the LA area this round trip could have been made at highway speeds!

This can'te too far away - can it?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Great post Tony. Maybe we can petition the Corp to put an L3 charger - like the one Nissan is selling for $10,000 in Pendleton. If Nissan would put another at a dealership in the LA area this round trip could have been made at highway speeds!

This can'te too far away - can it?

I don't think I want the Marine Corps involved in my refueling !!! They might make me re-up for a few more electrons.

We definitely need the L3's, but it's soooooooooo slow down here. Several L3 installations are ruffling feathers now, but to my knowledge, none are going to be in Oceanside.

 

[Caracalover]

I slowed because that is the logical thing to do to increase range, and running the heater was making that contingency necessary over the planned (and driven up until that point) 45mph.

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner. So, while you haven't done it, you feel compelled to pontificate to me how it should be. Thanks. On this trip that I took, please describe which non-freeway route you propose between San Diego County and Los Angeles County. When I next visit Europe, and happen to have an electric car, I'll keep your points in mind. Thanks.

What is the purpose of suggesting how "easy" 100 miles is to drive, and then offering how you recharged for an hour to come up short of 100 miles? It sounds like a great plan, though; just drive any number of miles, and recharge, and drive some more. You can have any range you want.

100 miles is a marketing number. That's why you drive 5 miles from a full charge, and the GuessOmeter then shows some other far lower range prediction than 100-5. It sells cars that saying the car has a 73 EPA range wouldn't.

I've been to both battery warnings more times than I could relate. Many dozens of times. 11 times to Turtle mode. Twice to a complete stop. While I appreciate your vigor to tell us how easy 100 miles is, the fact is, YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT ONCE. I don't "guess" very much on how much range I might gain; I generally have plotted and calculated that.

No, I don't know what you mean, because you are WRONG. The car does NOT get better economy by stopping and accelerating to a speed than it does by driving at that steady state speed without stops.

What a rant...

This is your thread, and I will make this my last comment.

Fact 1: You are not an average driver, and you opt to push this vehicle to/beyond its limits. You must not "plan" that well if you have run the car to a complete stop twice - although I would guess you are the kind of guy that did it once just to see what would happen - not average. While you call me wrong, you don't seem to understand my point, so I will simply stop trying to make it. As of yet, I have not had the need to go more than one hundred miles on a single charge, other than to tell you I could do it. Not enough of a reason for me. I have never even seen a second battery warning, again, never had the need, and it is not something I desire. It is something you plan for, and you adjust your speed to see it. Pushing the envelope is what makes you happy perhaps? I prefer to just get there with charge to spare. I live on L1 and it takes quite a while to recharge my ride. Again, not an issue for me, for you I am sure it would be.

When I have opted to go longer distances, I take my time and have experienced fantastic economy of power use. When you coast to 45 and then regen to keep your speed there, you gain energy you chose to lose to air friction. Deny it if you want to, but you were tired and wanted to get home, and at that point knew you would make it. That was good planning, and I do want to thank you for the work you have put into sharing your experiences. It is interesting and useful information that I have enjoyed. But do realize where you are coming from. The little old lady that uses this car to go shopping and to church will be able to go 100 miles without charging, and you not only know it, you have proven it. That is a far more average user than you. Granted she would have to forget to plug it in for a month, but it could happen.

Fact 2: You did make it 100+ miles. You state at one point: "Finally, I hope that folks will understand that you can, in fact, plan quite accurately and methodically, how far this car will go. Many of my trips are "proving" runs of data that I've compiled. I can frequently plan to within a few miles of actual performance. I don't like guessing."

My initial foray into this thread was in reply to another persons post. You don't like Nissan throwing around the 100 number, but to say it will only get 60 is just as ridiculous to me, and I find it offensive. YOU have proven 100 miles is possible, and you had no choice but to use a freeway at speeds too low for safe travel. Please don't do that again, even if someone will pay you. It is not worth your life, or your sons. I do know that stretch of road, and the average speed is well over 70 for vehicles of the class you were driving. Did even one Highway Patrol go by? If one had, you might have had an issue. If you know the car as well as you say, plan on at least 60 through that stretch, should you decide to do it again. I have feared breaking down in that area, and at least with this car, you did not have that fear.

As for the 100 mile marketing comment, and the GOM. My GOM goes up to over a 100 mile number when I drive 5 miles from my home. At full charge from my home it reads around 70. I have a 500 foot drop to the closest freeway. As you well know, the GOM should be removed, and why you brought it up baffles me. If it is a marketing gimmick, it is the worst marketing gimmick ever seen. It has only contributed to the anxiety early adopters have experienced. Breaking the SOC into one hundred bars or so would have been a far better way to gauge how much power you have used, how much you might gain while braking, etc. etc. But I digress to words best used elsewhere.

 

[BraveLittleToaster]

And people wonder why mainstream consumers haven't jumped on-board BEVs Seriously, Tony, while I applaud the explorer in you (I've done my share of "just to see if I can"), I've got to ask if you see this as an efficient use of your time? Sure, it can be done, but why would anyone other than the most dedicated EV fanatic want to, when there are so many quicker ways to get there?

You know, when you're crawling along on the freeway at 30 mph in heavy traffic, I have a saying for my ultra-frustrated carpool driver or passenger or whoever is being dangerously impatient.

"We're still going twice as fast as the next fastest mode of transportation". No, I don't mean a bike, (although that counts too, but it all depends on how fit you are) I mean a city bus. Even with the traffic penalty (which the bus has to deal with too), that bus halves its average speed by having to stop as often as it does.

"But we *could* be going 3x faster than this!!!" Sure, and you *could* take the trip in an airplane, too. Or a rocketship. Or on a donkey, if you don't shut up and sit still.

 

[GRA]

And people wonder why mainstream consumers haven't jumped on-board BEVs Seriously, Tony, while I applaud the explorer in you (I've done my share of "just to see if I can"), I've got to ask if you see this as an efficient use of your time? Sure, it can be done, but why would anyone other than the most dedicated EV fanatic want to, when there are so many quicker ways to get there?

You know, when you're crawling along on the freeway at 30 mph in heavy traffic, I have a saying for my ultra-frustrated carpool driver or passenger or whoever is being dangerously impatient.

"We're still going twice as fast as the next fastest mode of transportation". No, I don't mean a bike, (although that counts too, but it all depends on how fit you are) I mean a city bus. Even with the traffic penalty (which the bus has to deal with too), that bus halves its average speed by having to stop as often as it does.

"But we *could* be going 3x faster than this!!!" Sure, and you *could* take the trip in an airplane, too. Or a rocketship. Or on a donkey, if you don't shut up and sit still.

Man, talk about doing some deep digging, dredging up a two year old thread! Question, why would you be crawling along on the freeway in heavy traffic with a passenger? Don't you have HOV lanes where you are? And the same applies to commute-route buses, which either get to use those same HOV lanes or else their own dedicated lanes. Bus Rapid Transit (dedicated bus lanes on city streets, with limited stops) is starting to catch on in a few U.S. cities as well, although it's far more widely practiced in other countries, especially in South America.

Besides, you're talking about two different things: being forced to slow down by the traffic, versus being forced to slow down because the car doesn't have the range to get you to your destination otherwise. The first is an external limitation over which you have little personal control, while the second is entirely a matter of what you find acceptable. If you don't find it so, you can opt for a different car which isn't so limited. Judging by the number of Tesla sales versus LEAF sales in the last quarter (despite their vastly different prices), I think we know just how valuable range capabilities are rated. Until long-range BEV prices come down to where mere mortals can afford them, PHEVs will remain the (relatively) poor-man's Tesla.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Sorry I had to jump in here.

I traveled between Chicago and Waukesha (wi) I'm 0 degree weather. Yes I had to charge because even with careful driving I was only looking at 65-70 miles full to empty (I needed 80). But I didn't use the heater to preserve range . So don't say the car was chilled at 50F. I would have gladly taken 30F and would have had a shot at doing it in 1 go.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Does running the heater actually warm the battery, or just through cabin osmosis?

 

[derkraut]

"Does running the heater actually warm the battery, or just through cabin osmosis?"

Cabin osmosis, I believe.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Well if nissan is still out there looking at these posts, a preheat function which brings battery temps to an optimal level would be great. (Even a hair higher as the assumption is outside temps are cold. )

Heck, even a manual flap that let heat into the battery compartment would be great.