REALLY!!! $200 gas tax.

[aqn]

I reckon it's *always* possible to feel justified, when complaining about inequitable taxation!

If the taxation is inequitable, then it's not "complaining".

I have zero issues with paying any amount, large or small. I have issues with a random amount being levied with seemingly zero thought or rationale, which amount being vastly unfair compared to what ICEV drivers pay.

I'd say that $200/yr, per registered vehicle, is a pretty low price to pay for the privilege of having a state-maintained roading network.

It may be low, or not. The debate is not whether the amount is low or not. It's whether the amount EV drivers have to pay is equitable. It's not, certainly not here in Texas.

 

[cornbinder89]

Don't forget there is the Federal portion of the gas tax, add that on to the state. But your argument is a valid one, a Prius (plain hybrid, not plug in), which is the closest comparison gets between 45-50 MPG, or double the adv.

 

[redLEAF]

More than 30 states have an EV fee now - here in IL when they were first thinking about it some 'misinformed' politician proposed a $1,000 annual fee! Needless to say at least some common sense prevailed and it ended up being an extra $100 per year - from the list on this news article it seems they vary between $50 in HI and $316 in WA (although that one is variable). What was more interesting is that IL started with special EV plates when we had bought our LEAF at only $35 every 2 years as they were encouraging people to switch to non-polluting cars! My how times have changed -- https://www.thepennyhoarder.com/tax...hat-may-come-with-having-an-electric-vehicle/

 

[pismo61]

What is adv?

 

[marshallinwash]

Washington state charges $150 a year plus an additional $75 a year that currently goes to paying for charging locations until July of 2025. After July 2025, the $75 goes into the motor vehicle fund.

Hybrids get charged $75 per year.

The current fee structure rewards road warriors and gas fueled cars over electric vehicles.

It could be worse. I could live in New Jersey.

 

[marshallinwash]

More than 30 states have an EV fee now - here in IL when they were first thinking about it some 'misinformed' politician proposed a $1,000 annual fee! Needless to say at least some common sense prevailed and it ended up being an extra $100 per year - from the list on this news article it seems they vary between $50 in HI and $316 in WA (although that one is variable). What was more interesting is that IL started with special EV plates when we had bought our LEAF at only $35 every 2 years as they were encouraging people to switch to non-polluting cars! My how times have changed -- https://www.thepennyhoarder.com/tax...hat-may-come-with-having-an-electric-vehicle/

Washington is $225 a year.

 

[marshallinwash]

This complaint comes up a few times a year but the math doesn't change. The ONLY thing that matters is what stays in the wallet.

I pay $225 a year for my EVness and VERY HAPPY to do it. I am running under $500 a year for "fuel" (the EV tab renewal fee is listed under fuel BTW...) and NEWSFLASH! The gas tax ONLY happens when YOU BUY GAS!

So any calculation that doesn't have an all in (or actually "all out of the wallet") figure is simply SPIN.

I drive less than 5,000 miles a year. I'm getting screwing by the Washington state EV tax!

Unfortunately, our brain dead governor vetoed the legislation that would have fix it.

 

[KazooBruce]

I favor odometer based fees as my fee in Michigan is just a bit higher than I would have paid taxes at the pump for gasoline since I drive so few miles. The difference isn't much. A really value either way for a cross country road network.

The problem with registration fees or my odometer system, is that it is functional regressive. Fees based on fuel purchase do not require savings, it's pay as you go. If you don't pay you don't go. With registration fees, no matter how they are calculated, set up marginal economic households for failure. Depending on circumstances at the time, fees might be too much for the budget, either preventing use of the car or making them break the law to get to work or school.

I don't know the solution to this issue other than public transit, but that doesn't work for a lot of Americans.

 

[cornbinder89]

My take is: Long and short of it, "they" don't want to "solve" with any other solution than GPS monitoring, as it gives them so much control to tax things we haven't even thought of yet.

 

[KazooBruce]

Who is "they". The state Department of Transportation? Have you seen any policy proposal for GPS monitoring? I have seen some legislation proposed for odometer fees.

 

[BuckMkII]

Who is "they". The state Department of Transportation? Have you seen any policy proposal for GPS monitoring? I have seen some legislation proposed for odometer fees.

That would be the state Department of Licensing, I think, at least in Washington.

I'm definitely not thrilled with the idea of the state having GPS tracking of my car, although they could doubtless buy the same info from a data broker for my phone locations.

Odometer readings would presumably require verification visits to a license office, which is cumbersome and not ideal. We do renewals online now. Letting people self-attest to their ODO readings seems like a bad idea.

edit: Pretty sure my EV fee is way more than the state gas tax I avoided by using the Leaf for commuting. By a factor of about 2.5 by my calculation. The fee is only "fair" if someone who commutes 20 miles one way replaces a rather inefficient ICEV with an EV. If you replaced something like a Honda Fit with an EV, you'd need to be doing something like a 35 mile commute to break even, if I'm calculating correctly.

 

[KazooBruce]

Agreed gps , odometer all have issues. The gas tax was so simple.

 

[cornbinder89]

Who is "they". The state Department of Transportation? Have you seen any policy proposal for GPS monitoring? I have seen some legislation proposed for odometer fees.

I Guess you haven't been reading the attached info!

 

[cornbinder89]

In case you think me in the tinfoil hat crowd:
https://www.motor1.com/news/678659/utah-road-usage-tax-by-mile-pilot-program/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2pXIV4jNQrtZeL_nBTgxti

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2xjUgLwNgBb5bqygrojpe1
And in case you think it is just states, here is a link about the fed's getting involved.
https://fortune.com/2023/06/27/gas-...el-efficiency-evs-states-tracking-road-usage/

Sorry, that was the dumb PA State Gov's web servers doing their weird document hide and seek routine. I though I was pointing to this: https://tetcoalitionmbuf.org/wp-con...Fee-Approaches-for-All-Users_Fact-Sheet-1.pdf

Both these have links to who, where, but it is there and coming!

 

[Yodrak]

Yep, Missouri has $120 a year gas tax...someone has to pay for the roads and you are not paying gas tax..

The Missouri gas tax - "Motor Fuel Tax" in the statutes - is collected at the pump based on gallons of fuel purchased. It is not a fixed annual fee.

In a strange word game, motor vehicles that do not use gasoline, diesel, kerosene, or "blended fuel" do not pay a road-use "tax". Instead they must purchase, by Jan 31 each year, an "Alternative Fuel Decal" that must be displayed on the windshield. (My observation is that few EV owners bother to display the decal. I don't.) I paid the passenger car EV price of $105 in December 2023 for each of my two 2024 decals, plus a $6 processing fee for each decal, for a total of $222. I bought the 2024 decals in December because it allowed me to pay the 2023 price, saving a 20% increase had I waited until January when I would have had to pay the 2024 price.

PHEVs pay half the price of EVs.

The Alternative Fuel Decal is transferable with the car, so if one sells their car during the calendar year the new owner does not have to buy a decal until the following January.

Vehicles running on propane, CNG, LNG, kerosene, or whatever else, may not have to buy an Alternative Fuel Decal if they purchase their fuel from a source that collects the Motor Fuel Tax for the fuel.

 

[KazooBruce]

I Guess you haven't been reading the attached info!

Well I stand corrected. I see the Fey's bill in Washington and some movement in Oregon.

Well as EV owners we need to get behind something that is fair to all drivers and non intrusive. Because bad ideas are adopted when there are no other options presented.

 

[MikeinPA]

Well I stand corrected. I see the Fey's bill in Washington and some movement in Oregon.

Well as EV owners we need to get behind something that is fair to all drivers and non intrusive. Because bad ideas are adopted when there are no other options presented.

So how do we define non intrusive? Many here think that if GPS data is collected--that this automatically equals intrusive because we cannot trust state highway organizations. In my opinion, the issue of whether data collection is intrusive is with how this data is handled and not so much whether it was collected. In Europe, location data is highly protected, and penalties for breaching the rules severe. https://www.eqs.com/compliance-blog/biggest-gdpr-fines/ . If we had these protections, then collecting data to equitably tax road use would not be nearly so worrisome.

It takes a lot of work to get politicians to take notice of an new issue. My opinion is that it makes a lot more sense to push for data privacy regulations that cover all aspect of state government than to focus on a narrower issue or rejecting technology because the governments are not trust worthy. In other words, address the root issue, push for a better government, rather than accept the status quo. We need to have governments--might as well push for trustworthy ones.

 

[cornbinder89]

Well, the problem I see is their stated goal of time and place of use, not a flat miles based off GPS. So lets say " 25 cents per 100 miles, but $100 per mile if withing greater Chicago" Those are the types of things GPS opens up.
Also lets say I run NY 5 instead of the thruway, but can GPS tell as the two roads run very close together for most of the time, I shouldn't be charged a toll for running a state hyway.
It is harder to close the door than keep it from opening in the 1st place.
None of this addresses the need for a "bank" with the state and minimum deposits. That will be a real problem for the poor and those on fixed incomes.
The privacy issue isn't ( or shouldn't be) the State selling your info, but that the State using your info to tax you in ways you haven't thought of. Like parking tax, time of day tax, neighborhood use tax, ect . Right now all they know is X number of gal of fuel were sold and the tax collected. THAT is it.
I am more worried about where, when and how, being accessible to the government then I am that they my "leak" my data.
How do you deal with tourists from outside the US? presently they pay road tax when they buy fuel.

 

[wekebu]

In Texas we paid $400 for the first year and will pay $200 in following years. I have a 2018 Leaf, that I purchased new in 2018. It has 22k miles. I can't tell you what I drive annually, but it's not much. This tax bill is in place to discourage EVs...in my opinion.

 

[MikeinPA]

Well, the problem I see is their stated goal of time and place of use, not a flat miles based off GPS. So lets say " 25 cents per 100 miles, but $100 per mile if withing greater Chicago" Those are the types of things GPS opens up.
Also lets say I run NY 5 instead of the thruway, but can GPS tell as the two roads run very close together for most of the time, I shouldn't be charged a toll for running a state hyway.
It is harder to close the door than keep it from opening in the 1st place.
None of this addresses the need for a "bank" with the state and minimum deposits. That will be a real problem for the poor and those on fixed incomes.
The privacy issue isn't ( or shouldn't be) the State selling your info, but that the State using your info to tax you in ways you haven't thought of. Like parking tax, time of day tax, neighborhood use tax, ect . Right now all they know is X number of gal of fuel were sold and the tax collected. THAT is it.
I am more worried about where, when and how, being accessible to the government then I am that they my "leak" my data.
How do you deal with tourists from outside the US? presently they pay road tax when they buy fuel.

I both agree and disagree with these excellent comments. Everything you point out is 100% valid in that GPS data flowing out of your vehicle would open the door to all sorts of bad behavior around taxation and surveillance. The number of ways our private information is already being collected and used against us is staggering. But, isn't the solution to expect government to behave properly, to work for us instead of against us? Lobby for that, rather than accept the dismal status quo?