jlsoaz
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:08 am

Lothsahn wrote:
johnlocke wrote:The real problem here is that Nissan picked the wrong chemistry to start with. The problem haunts them to this day. Higher average temps cause more rapid degradation in both the 24 and 30 KWH batteries. The jury is still out on the 40 KWH battery but the evidence so far doesn't look good. It will be another year before we will be able to say if the 40 KWH is really any better or worse. It does look like there's a problem fast charging the 40 KWH battery during road trips. NIssan will continue to use the same chemistry simply because it works ok in their primary markets ( Europe and Japan). Nissan USA has repeatedly ignored customer complaints and failed to act except under court duress.


Honestly, I think the real problem is that while they've kept the battery size the same, they refuse to sell upgrades. If people could buy a replacement 40 kWh battery for the 24 kWh original cars, I don't think there would be the negative attention that they're getting right now. They've already figured out how to fit 60 kWh in basically the same size. Also a possibility for a future upgrade, but Nissan likely won't do it.

Tesla's got goodwill because they make their cars better via constant software updates and improvements. Nissan has a huge opportunity here to set a precedent that their cars will get better when you buy a replacement battery in ~10 years after the original purchase, but there's not currently the will to do that. It's not even hard--they just have to design a BMS to talk to the older VCM protocol, and reprogram the VCM to update the GOM.


Both of you discuss points that I think are worth making. I just wish it was possible for each of us to raise issues and mull them over and occasionally to disagree without quite this extent of (sometimes arguably off-the-mark) brow-beating.

As to future-proofing the Leaf, yes, I thought so around 2012, and I may have said so, and still think so now. It may not be as do-able as you lay out, but IMO there would be value to NIssan and its customers to trying harder in this area. As an example, I think alliance member Renault in France did more to explore the question of battery upgrade/replacement. I don't know the pros/cons of how that turned out.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

jlsoaz
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:12 am

I'd still like to know how to start a poll on this topic. If I have to re-join in order to get it started I will, but nobody has yet been able to tel me with certainty that joining will let me set up a poll.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:55 am

jlsoaz wrote:I'd still like to know how to start a poll on this topic. If I have to re-join in order to get it started I will, but nobody has yet been able to tel me with certainty that joining will let me set up a poll.


I just looked all over the site, and I can't find a "Start A Poll" option anywhere. I suspect it was dropped a while back, as I also don't recall seeing a site-generated poll.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:39 am

Lothsahn wrote:Honestly, I think the real problem is that while they've kept the battery size the same, they refuse to sell upgrades.

Of course you think so, you bought a used LEAF with a degraded battery, presumably for a song. It is more than a little presumptuous to say that what serves your self-interest is good for Nissan. And consider this: If Nissan did have an inexpensive, low friction upgrade path, you would not own that car because it either would have stayed with the original owners or it would have been sold for a much higher price.

All car companies are forward looking and want to sell their newest and greatest, not get bogged down with yesterday's customers. This is particularly true when it comes to growth companies with products in flux. There is a thin line wherein past customers do not turn into detractors because their purchase turned out to be a bad choice, yet they are keen to swap into an improved product. When it comes to cars, my opinion is that the car has to maintain its original functionality for about 15 years with market average costs.

Fundamentally, LEAFs fail overall because they are junk-grade after 5-8 years. Look around you -- what do you see ? People who leased or bought cheaply due to regulatory demands, or people like you and me who bought highly depreciated junk. That is no way to run a business. This forum is over represented by the bottom feeders. The LEAF ecology lacks a healthy food chain.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Lothsahn
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:18 am

SageBrush wrote:Of course you think so, you bought a used LEAF with a degraded battery, presumably for a song. It is more than a little presumptuous to say that what serves your self-interest is good for Nissan. And consider this: If Nissan did have an inexpensive, low friction upgrade path, you would not own that car because it either would have stayed with the original owners or it would have been sold for a much higher price.


Perhaps, but unclear. I purchased my Leaf for $5500 with the plan to install a $5500 battery within the next year. That makes the total purchase price of my car $11k. Nissan then raised the price of the battery by $2500 without warning. Essentially, I was willing to pay $11k for a car that lasted 5-8 years -- I did not expect to be able to get a battery upgrade. If the batteries in the Leaf didn't degrade, the car would have retained a much higher value.

SageBrush wrote:All car companies are forward looking and want to sell their newest and greatest, not get bogged down with yesterday's customers. This is particularly true when it comes to growth companies with products in flux. There is a thin line wherein past customers do not turn into detractors because their purchase turned out to be a bad choice, yet they are keen to swap into an improved product. When it comes to cars, my opinion is that the car has to maintain its original functionality for about 15 years with market average costs.

Fundamentally, LEAFs fail overall because they are junk-grade after 5-8 years. Look around you -- what do you see ? People who leased or bought cheaply due to regulatory demands, or people like you and me who bought highly depreciated junk. That is no way to run a business.


Perhaps, but EV adoption is currently so low that I don't think it's as necessary to get existing customers to swap to a new vehicle the way that traditional car sales do. There are essentially two groups of owners: Those willing to buy new and those that buy based on value (you and I).

As you said, the main problem with the Leaf is that they are essentially junk after 5-8 years. This creates negative buzz from unhappy existing owners and scares away potential new buyers. Any reasonable solution to retain resale value to us second owners thus tremendously benefits the first owners, and therefore, Nissan. My claim is that selling all owners battery upgrades will cause such a rise in resale value that it will be a net benefit to Nissan.

Look at Subaru and Toyota. They specifically demand higher prices for their cars because they have a reputation for high reliability and high resale value. Leaf reliability is on-par, but resale value is not.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
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7 bars and really feeling the range squeeze

jlsoaz
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:40 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
jlsoaz wrote:I'd still like to know how to start a poll on this topic. If I have to re-join in order to get it started I will, but nobody has yet been able to tel me with certainty that joining will let me set up a poll.


I just looked all over the site, and I can't find a "Start A Poll" option anywhere. I suspect it was dropped a while back, as I also don't recall seeing a site-generated poll.


Ok, thanks for looking around again. I looked around a couple of other places that seem to be related:

http://www.myelectriccarforums.com
http://www.myfusionenergi.com
http://www.myelectriccarforums.com/foru ... m.php?f=39

I didn't offhand run across any poll aspect as a user, though it's possible I may have missed it. I'll post one or two additional thoughts in the website discussion area.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

jlsoaz
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:28 am

Lothsahn wrote: [...]Look at Subaru and Toyota. They specifically demand higher prices for their cars because they have a reputation for high reliability and high resale value. Leaf reliability is on-par, but resale value is not.


I think low resale value of Gen1 short-range (compared to what was coming) BEVs was almost inevitably (barring an extreme case such as a collector's item) going to happen unless they were future-proofed, or partially future-proofed, in the way you've suggested. In the case of the Leaf, since the initial vehicle had some degradation issues, arguably the issue of the lack of offering of battery upgrade paths was brought more to the fore.

To be fair, Nissan did make an effort to offer some sort of decent deal at the time my Lease came up so that in theory I could have gotten into a slightly longer range Leaf (though still inadequate for my needs). This is not a technological solution, but just to acknowledge the effort.

One might say that the separate effort to issue reasonable-seeming battery replacement pricing and terms was not exactly a future-proofing matter since Nissan declined to offer the ability to upgrade the battery or related (IIRC). Still, I thought it was a measure that could help support the value of the vehicle in the marketplace. You point out that Nissan raised the price on you and others later on (in your case after you had bought the vehicle and planned the replacement) and arguably this sort of abrupt action on a key vehicle component does not help marketplace value retention. I'm guessing they were struggling with some difference between the price their internal manufacturing cost, but whatever their rationale, it doesn't help the marketplace value and arguably harms some of the customer experiences.

After I had the Leased Leaf, when I went to buy a used Volt (while I planned to wait for the higher-quality used ~60 kWh BEVs to come down in price in the marketplace) , I did try hard to get a straight answer on battery replacement cost and terms (particularly would it be new or refurbished). I was a bit frustrated because I ran into some widely varying answers (anywhere from $3k to $18k or more). I'm not sure that any of them came directly from the manufacturer in an official way (company statement, as with Nissan's transparency on these matters at the time), or in an unofficial way (conversation with a dealer). Ultimately I had to settle for sleuthing and impressions. I think some information was that if/when the battery just wasn't any good any more I could get it replaced for something like $3k. This did not seem to be guaranteed new, and I'm not sure if this included labor. I assumed when I ran across this information that it might be on the low side, but I kind of gave up and decided for now, on my budget, if I wanted to drive a PHEV or longer-range BEV here in somewhat-rural AZ I had to also trust my impressions of the testing and commitment that GM had made to preserving the battery, so that's what I did. In the intermediate term the decision has worked out. I'm hoping to trade for a used long-range (probably liquid cooled, but we'll see) BEV before I have to find out too much about how the Volt will act in its old age.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

Lothsahn
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:45 pm

jlsoaz wrote: I was a bit frustrated because I ran into some widely varying answers (anywhere from $3k to $18k or more). I'm not sure that any of them came directly from the manufacturer in an official way (company statement, as with Nissan's transparency on these matters at the time), or in an unofficial way (conversation with a dealer). Ultimately I had to settle for sleuthing and impressions. I think some information was that if/when the battery just wasn't any good any more I could get it replaced for something like $3k.


This is a good point. For an ICE, the repair cost of nearly every part is known, easily accessible, and parts are available. In most cases, aftermarket parts also exist at lower price points. But for batteries (the most expensive single part of a BEV), these don't exist. This creates a lot of FUD.

When Nissan raises the price of batteries without warning, owners have no other alternatives. If you wanted to buy a battery from Nissan, you have to have a car to install it into and return the current one. I cannot walk into a Nissan dealership and just order a 40 kWh battery, even if I wanted to.

The price and supply uncertainty sometimes make me wonder if I even want to buy another Leaf, despite having an overall good experience with my current one.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
7 bars and really feeling the range squeeze

jlsoaz
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:11 pm

Lothsahn wrote:
jlsoaz wrote: I was a bit frustrated because I ran into some widely varying answers (anywhere from $3k to $18k or more). I'm not sure that any of them came directly from the manufacturer in an official way (company statement, as with Nissan's transparency on these matters at the time), or in an unofficial way (conversation with a dealer). Ultimately I had to settle for sleuthing and impressions. I think some information was that if/when the battery just wasn't any good any more I could get it replaced for something like $3k.


This is a good point. For an ICE, the repair cost of nearly every part is known, easily accessible, and parts are available. In most cases, aftermarket parts also exist at lower price points. But for batteries (the most expensive single part of a BEV), these don't exist. This creates a lot of FUD.

When Nissan raises the price of batteries without warning, owners have no other alternatives. If you wanted to buy a battery from Nissan, you have to have a car to install it into and return the current one. I cannot walk into a Nissan dealership and just order a 40 kWh battery, even if I wanted to.

The price and supply uncertainty sometimes make me wonder if I even want to buy another Leaf, despite having an overall good experience with my current one.


It's getting kind of out there, but fun conversation I think, so I'll say that I've spent a bit too much time watching and enjoying "Rich Rebuilds"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_w ... DuZT2ct4SA

He has done a nice job I think of challenging some of the fear/uncertainty/doubt around repairing a badly damaged Tesla. I wonder if there are others around who have done similar on a Leaf. This is not to advocate turning to those folks as a mainstream answer if one wanted to try to address issues with one's Leaf, it is only to say that I think these questions go beyond Nissan. One thing I noticed in listening to one of the Rich Rebuilds videos was that he mentioned some of the particulars of getting information. If I understood correctly (and I may not have done):

- Massachusetts (? I think it was ?) has some sort of law as to what information manufacturers are compelled to make available to those who want to repair a vehicle. I'm not sure if this also had to do with parts prices and availability.
- I think he pays Tesla a certain amount of money (a few thousand a year? I don't remember) for a kind of full-blown mechanic's level of access to information in order to try to get things done.

Although I may be mistaken, it sounded as though he was crediting the law with at least helping him a bit. Still, he has some strong critical points to make about the Tesla repair process and limitations and issues.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

Lothsahn
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:52 pm

jlsoaz wrote:It's getting kind of out there, but fun conversation I think, so I'll say that I've spent a bit too much time watching and enjoying "Rich Rebuilds"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_w ... DuZT2ct4SA


I love Rich Rebuilds. I agree the interactions he's had with Tesla were very discouraging and turned me off somewhat to them as a manufacturer, but it seems like all EV manufacturers act similar, as we discussed earlier.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
7 bars and really feeling the range squeeze

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