palmermd
Posts: 2436
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:07 pm

As of this morning September 15, 2016 we lost our third bar. We now sit at 47.49Ahr, 72%SOH and Hx 51.78, 48,960 miles 4585 L1/L2 and 3 DCQC charges.

palmermd wrote:As of August 1st 2015 we lost our second bar. We now sit at 51.51Ahr, 78%SOH and Hx 60.23%, 37,016 miles, 3245 L1/L2 charges and 0 DCQC charges.

palmermd wrote:... As of today, 1st of June 2014 we have 54.91Ahr SOH 83% and Hx 68.63%, 25,382 miles, 1890 L1/L2 charges and 0 DCQC charges. ...


Seems like we lose one every year. Not sure why its been slower than others in the area, but I guess that is a good thing since were way beyond the warranty period.
Michael

Leaf since 31 March 2011
Driving electric since 1996


First Bar Loss
Second Bar Loss
Third Bar Loss

EV1
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:18 pm

1 new member to the 11-bars-club here. :|

This, after 3,5 years and 37.00KM ( 23.000miles) , very temperate maritime climate ( I only see 6 temperature bars 5-10 days in a year), 20 quick-charges a year and the first 1,5 year mostly charging to 80% (90% of the time).

Dissapointed, but knowing this was coming, for the last half year I experienced about 20% (!) less performance of the battery pack, although all 12 capacity-bars were still showing.

I have always suspected that the battery of my Leaf was below average. It showed and shows all signs of higher internal resistance.

Image

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:50 am

EV1 wrote:1 new member to the 11-bars-club here. :|

This, after 3,5 years and 37.00KM ( 23.000miles) , very temperate maritime climate ( I only see 6 temperature bars 5-10 days in a year), 20 quick-charges a year and the first 1,5 year mostly charging to 80% (90% of the time).


I'm convinced now that 2011 Leaf had different chemistry compared to 2014 Leaf.
Very similar climate, few days of 6 bars per year.
Twice as much of mileage compared to you but 2,4 years old. Same charging behavior (80% for 95% of the time).
And Hx and SOH values still above 90%.

SOH value has 7% difference but Hx is 20%. Climate and usage pattern is very similar.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:53 am

EV1 wrote:
Dissapointed, but knowing this was coming, for the last half year I experienced about 20% (!) less performance of the battery pack, although all 12 capacity-bars were still showing.


I'm curious, could you elaborate on how to measured this 20%? Did you drive from 100% charge to turtle? Or just down to LBW? If the latter, be aware that the LBW will happen at a higher relative SoC as the battery degrades. It seems that the amount of energy available below LBW is constant. Therefore, the degradation is taken "off the top".
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7205
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:34 pm

I'm convinced now that 2011 Leaf had different chemistry compared to 2014 Leaf.


There isn't any doubt about that. The only questions are how much did Nissan change the chemistry in April of 2013, and is the second generation pack the same as the "lizard" pack, or just an incremental improvement between 4/13 and 2015.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:49 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:be aware that the LBW will happen at a higher relative SoC as the battery degrades. It seems that the amount of energy available below LBW is constant. Therefore, the degradation is taken "off the top".


LBW always happens at 50 GID limit and VLBW at 25 GID limit. So yes. Amount of available energy is almost the same (it fluctuates in both directions as calculations are sometimes off).

What happened in 2015? Another battery "upgrade"?
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:16 pm

arnis wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:be aware that the LBW will happen at a higher relative SoC as the battery degrades. It seems that the amount of energy available below LBW is constant. Therefore, the degradation is taken "off the top".


LBW always happens at 50 GID limit and VLBW at 25 GID limit. So yes. Amount of available energy is almost the same (it fluctuates in both directions as calculations are sometimes off).

What happened in 2015? Another battery "upgrade"?


2015 Model Year happened in 2014. So what happened in 2015 is they kept selling what they made in 2014. But yes the 2015 MY car had a change in battery chemistry.

Nissan announced it here in this thread viewtopic.php?t=17168 on Jun 27, 2014

First build date on a 2015 Model is 04/14 as discussed in viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20706&start=200

But you are highly off topic for a thread about 2011/2012 Leafs so please take this to another thread if you need to ask more questions.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:20 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
I'm convinced now that 2011 Leaf had different chemistry compared to 2014 Leaf.


There isn't any doubt about that. The only questions are how much did Nissan change the chemistry in April of 2013, and is the second generation pack the same as the "lizard" pack, or just an incremental improvement between 4/13 and 2015.


Nissan reps and executives have said on more than one occasion that the 2013 rev was a packaging change more than a chemistry change and that the 2013 packs didn't change chemistry significantly.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

dm33
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 4:43 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:08 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
I'm convinced now that 2011 Leaf had different chemistry compared to 2014 Leaf.


There isn't any doubt about that. The only questions are how much did Nissan change the chemistry in April of 2013, and is the second generation pack the same as the "lizard" pack, or just an incremental improvement between 4/13 and 2015.


Nissan reps and executives have said on more than one occasion that the 2013 rev was a packaging change more than a chemistry change and that the 2013 packs didn't change chemistry significantly.

Enormous epirical evidence clearly shows that chemistry was improved around April 2013. Batteries after that time degrade MUCH slower than those before.

We had a early 2013 that was totaled and replaced with a later 2013. It was day and night difference. The early 2013 degraded more in 6 months and 6,000 miles than the second car did in almost 3 years and 36,000 miles.

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:11 am

dm33 wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
There isn't any doubt about that. The only questions are how much did Nissan change the chemistry in April of 2013, and is the second generation pack the same as the "lizard" pack, or just an incremental improvement between 4/13 and 2015.


Nissan reps and executives have said on more than one occasion that the 2013 rev was a packaging change more than a chemistry change and that the 2013 packs didn't change chemistry significantly.

Enormous epirical evidence clearly shows that chemistry was improved around April 2013. Batteries after that time degrade MUCH slower than those before.

We had a early 2013 that was totaled and replaced with a later 2013. It was day and night difference. The early 2013 degraded more in 6 months and 6,000 miles than the second car did in almost 3 years and 36,000 miles.


No, empirical evidence shows that degradation was reduced after build dates of 04/13. Chemistry is not the only thing that could be changed. Nissan stated that chemistry did not change significantly so it's reasonable to assume it's another factor or factors.

Again this is off topic in this thread and should be taken to another thread if you wish to continue discussing it.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

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