creep

alk444 said:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/creep-or-not-creepsuggestion
apparently Tesla has user selectable options controlling creep or not.
is there any after market mods for Leaf that would implement this?

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Not only is it an option, but it was an option added via an over the air software update to all cars. Initially the Model S had no creep and no option to turn it on. Some people wanted it for reasons mentioned in this thread, others didn't, so they made it an option. Pretty amazing that things like that can be added after the fact for Tesla cars. Don't expect that to happen for the LEAF.

Zythryn said:

The i3 also has no creep.

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Yep, on this note, when I posted about my i3 test drive at CES at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=348698#p348698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

I overheard a woman talking (who likely didn't follow EVs) who basically said they were confused by the lack of creep (they didn't use the word and very likely weren't car enthusiasts judging by the way they talked about it) and said they were surprised by the very sudden leap forward when they used the accelerator. From what I overheard, it seems they were thrown off by putting it into D, via the very unconventional shift lever and motion and having the car do nothing, due to lack of creep.

I sure hope that dealers give a good overview before test drives and delivery about this. I actually never had a chance to put it in reverse to confirm the lack of reverse creep (whoops). But, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear complaints or even accidents due to the lack of creep, since automatics and even hybrids provide directional cueing via creep.

I kinda like creep. (Does that make me creepy? :lol: )

One reason I like it is for maneuvering in the garage, particularly with new drivers. With creep, your foot is always on the break pedal, so there is little chance for a costly (or dangerous) mistake.

DanBaldwin said:

The creep feature is there (in my opinion, of course) for 4 reasons;

1) Nissan has done everything possible to make the Leaf experience identical to driving a gas car, other than the fact that the Leaf is quiet, and you don't have to visit gas stations.

2) To alert the driver as to which direction the car will go when they press on the accelerator.

3) To force the driver to keep their foot on the brake while stopped. If you put the car into neutral and don't keep your foot on the brake, it could roll into another car.

4) To keep the car from rolling backwards when releasing the brake after stopping on an uphill.

If you REALLY don't want to have to put your foot on the brake while stopped, you can put the car in park (NOT neutral), or you can set the parking brake. The parking brake will automatically release when you press on the accelerator as long as you have your seat belt on, at least in my 2012 SL.

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5) It simplifies driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic.

Nubo said:

5) It simplifies driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic.

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Surely being able to perform 'one pedal' driving makes it easier in heavy traffic? creep means you have to use two pedals.

CmdrThor said:

alk444 said:

jstack6 said:

Tesla is the only Electric that does not have CREEP.

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http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/creep-or-not-creepsuggestion
apparently Tesla has user selectable options controlling creep or not.
is there any after market mods for Leaf that would implement this?

Click to expand...

Not only is it an option, but it was an option added via an over the air software update to all cars.

Click to expand...

And the option can be dynamically turned off and on while you are driving. It was one of several things I found interesting during my test drive of a Model S.

donald said:

Nubo said:

5) It simplifies driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic.

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Surely being able to perform 'one pedal' driving makes it easier in heavy traffic? creep means you have to use two pedals.

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Depends on the traffic. I'm thinking of the worst traffic conditions where you never really need to rise above creep speed. I.e., one-pedal driving (brake pedal).

How did we ever manage to drive manual transmissions

smkettner said:

How did we ever manage to drive manual transmissions

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But, I gotta say, all my cars since 1978 had been manual transmission. And I was dead set against the idea of having creep on the LEAF. But now I am a total convert.

There are times I find it ...somewhat... useful. But I'd still rather have the option to turn it off.

Hybrid cars creep too. It's normal and expected behavior for a modern car. There are a few cars, like ICE BMWs that have an "Auto-H" feature that applies the brakes automatically at a stop, and releases them automatically with an accelerator press. But it would be a bad and dangerous practice to have a car stopped without the brakes applied one way or another.

donald said:

Nubo said:

5) It simplifies driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic.

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Surely being able to perform 'one pedal' driving makes it easier in heavy traffic? creep means you have to use two pedals.

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+1
I have found I for prefer having creep off in heavy traffic.
In addition, I have much finer control over speeds under 3-4mph without creep.

At first, I didn't like not having creep on. After driving with it I as completely converted.

Nubo said:

johnrhansen said:

There must be a brake pedal sensor so the car's electronics knows when the brake is on. It would be interesting to disconnect it from the brake and move it so that the car thinks the brake is applied when it actually isn't. I'd wager that if it was fully activated, brakes off and car in d it would not creep. An added feature would be if you want max regen going down a hill, you wouldn't have to feather the brake pedal.

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Not only does it know the brake is "on", it knows the amount of brake pressure. Regen is turned off at a certain brake pressure. That is why it may "seem" like it's always on, because you feel it tugging against the brakes before they are fully released.

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oh, so it's a hydraulic pressure sensor? I discounted that because I noticed a slight amount of movement in the pedal before I felt any back pressure, where I noticed the regen working... and once the car got to a certain speed, the regen stopped and the creep turned back on.. It must be a very subtitle pressure I couldn't feel with my foot. I just thought it was a resolver connected to the brake pedal linkage.

Zythryn said:

I have found I for prefer having creep off in heavy traffic.
In addition, I have much finer control over speeds under 3-4mph without creep.

At first, I didn't like not having creep on. After driving with it I as completely converted.

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Seems like we have converts on both sides. The logical solution is to make the creep selectable.

Unfortunately, Nissan has given their 'fraidy-cat lawyers far too much reign, as I am reminded on a daily basis as I push the "OK" button. I try to imagine that I'm poking a Nissan lawyer in the ribs. :twisted:

Why stop at off and on? I say give us Off, Low (minimal), High (ICE like).

Some want creep that will barely move you out of your garage others want creep that is fast enough to chase a mall walker across a parking lot. Some want creep in reverse but no creep in Drive.

I know with the tesla creep they have lowered the creep at some point with a software update.

I'm still not sure if I'd want creep at Off or Low but I'm positive I don't want a strong creep. Make the low option so weak I wonder if its even there sometimes and it'd probably be about right.

Nubo said:

Seems like we have converts on both sides. The logical solution is to make the creep selectable.

Unfortunately, Nissan has given their 'fraidy-cat lawyers far too much reign, as I am reminded on a daily basis as I push the "OK" button. I try to imagine that I'm poking a Nissan lawyer in the ribs. :twisted:

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+1000
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

To get real action on creep though is going to require lots of people corresponding with NHTSA.
Their guideline or rule pretty much near mandates reverse creep. Bit less clear or mandatory on forward creep.
Problem with all of it is there is no clarity on how fast the creep should be.
LEAF creep biggest problem is it is WAY too fast .
MUCH faster than my 2009 Altima which hardly moves.

If you want action, write NHTSA.

I think for safety's sake the creep should always be on in reverse, but there is no reason it couldn't be selectable in d. Perhaps it's off in eco and on in d?

2k1Toaster said:

From NHTSA:

Creep force alerts the driver to the vehicle's
direction of travel while the driver is in the process of releasing the
brake pedal and minimizes the chance that the driver will be surprised
due to shifting errors when he depresses the accelerator pedal. Creep
force is a characteristic inherent to ICE automatic transmission only
vehicles.

It is to prevent stupid people from being in the wrong gear. In a manual, no creep means no gear is engaged and if you say "go" the car won't. In an automatic if there is no creep, and you say "go" it will... However will it be forwards or backwards?

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BTW, for those who haven't found it, the above comes from http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2003/03-12051.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I learned of it thanks to a Priuschatter and I believe I've posted links to this a bunch of times before.

raleedy said:

Hybrid cars creep too. It's normal and expected behavior for a modern car. ...
But it would be a bad and dangerous practice to have a car stopped without the brakes applied one way or another.

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Yep.

For those who want no creep, imagine what happens if a person unfamiliar w/the car drives it. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=381024#p381024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. And, for those who want it settable, fine, but then turn it off and give it someone who doesn't know about it.

IIRC, TomT I believe confirmed that the i3 in reverse also has no creep.

We're in early days, long before there will be any consensus on EV 'creep'. At the moment, everyone's systems seem to work slightly differently.

The creep on the Fluence ZE is annoying. It is not a real creep because until you release the brake pedal then the motor does not apply torque. It is very difficult to inch forward, strikingly so if you are trying to creep up a slope. The benefit is that you waste no electrical energy. In theory the hill-hold assist should perform the necessary function, but if you stop gently on a slope then it does not activate, meaning that if you press the brake pedal only lightly neither the brakes nor motor work and you roll down hill.

I don't think anyone's yet got it right for EVs. One pedal stopping is useful and convenient in town, but it can raise the safety issues as mentioned. Should EVs be like 'pretend' ICE, or be something that only EVs could be, or something in between? I think the one pedal stop on the accel pedal is the way to go, but there should be something extra, some way of presenting certain warnings or preventing unintended operations. For sure, one of the simplest ways is to make sure the car has forward and reverse distance sensors, and it just won't let you pull away from 'no pedal' (ie no creep) stationary into the direction of something it can detect.

I bet I can think up a dozen possible ways to configure an EV, and a dozen pros and cons for each.

raleedy said:

Hybrid cars creep too. It's normal and expected behavior for a modern car. There are a few cars, like ICE BMWs that have an "Auto-H" feature that applies the brakes automatically at a stop, and releases them automatically with an accelerator press. But it would be a bad and dangerous practice to have a car stopped without the brakes applied one way or another.

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I strongly disagree. NO car with a manual transmission and clutch creeps. And, yes, there are modern cars with manual transmissions.

Creep is a feature to make the car feel like an automatic transmission in a car with an engine. It is not a feature of ICE, it is a feature of automatic transmissions and torque converters. A sad day when many drivers are so out of touch that they can't comfortably drive with a manual transmission.