2013 Low Battery Capacity AHr Battery Degradation

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chrisie75 said:
That's a wild guess. Some 2013 cars might be using battery packs actually made for previous year's? since 60-62Ahr is quite close to that...

My 60-62Ahr pack shows an average voltage of about 4.13 at a full charge. I don't believe this is consistent with pre-MY13 batteries.
 
yes and no.

it's a good argument for the whole battery sys, especially controller part. But it also might be just a software tweak (no cell involvement)-- any battery can be charged to higher voltage if you choose to, 4.13v is still within safe zone of 'full' 4.17v. We have no other proof now that any chemistry modifications happened between 12 and 13 model, right?

Anyway, like I mentioned it's a wild guess, which probably could never be verified. But it seems other tests result are not persuasive too, unless the measurements are not reliable enough to rule out so big error, which is so consistent --very strange.

Just my two cents.


Berlino said:
chrisie75 said:
That's a wild guess. Some 2013 cars might be using battery packs actually made for previous year's? since 60-62Ahr is quite close to that...

My 60-62Ahr pack shows an average voltage of about 4.13 at a full charge. I don't believe this is consistent with pre-MY13 batteries.
 
I've posted plenty on here about how quickly my 2013 battery is reported to be degrading. But suddenly in the last few days, capacity has suddenly shot up over 2%. Is it because its cooled off here and battery temp is in the low 70s?

Last series of Ahr, cap%, GIDS
Code:
10/7  59.95  90.48%  260
10/9  61.12  92.24%  264
10/12 61.29  92.50%  265
I haven't had reading this high since late August. Otherwise fairly steady decline.
 
Mileage:12
Ahr 67.36
Health 107.65%

Interestingly after driving 100miles and a charge or two health has only increased.. now at 118.74%
_________________
2013 Tekna 6kw charger UK Model Purchased October 2013
 
Well, I now have 3 mo of capacity readings on my 2013 Leafs (one S and one SV, both made May 2013 and delivered in June). List is about one check every 2 weeks. I have "H-factor" AKA "health" and other data, but consider it mostly of low value.

Code:
date    Cap S   Cap SV
7/16/13  60.5     60.3  AHr (a month after delivery when I got OBDII-Leaf Battery App)
7/30/13  60.4     60.7
8/14/13  60.7     61.0
9/1/13   60.3     61.4
9/15/13  60.8     60.7
10/1/13  60.5     59.5
10/15/13 59.4     58.9
10/29/13 58.8     61.2 (lower battery temps than prior, 63.3F, 62.8F)

Both cars are parked side-by-side outside, in shade. S has 4200miles, SV 4100miles
S has only base charger, SV has QC, and has had 19 total QC done.

Hard to see much of a pattern. The SV has a higher capacity than original, but battery temp is lower. BUT the S has a lower capacity than original and same lower battery temp. Haven't done range test to turtle recently, but both cars get down below VLBW at least once every 2 weeks, both charged mostly to 80%, but get a couple of 100% charges every 2 weeks. Both mostly driven at 4-4.5 mi/kwh driving style. No noticable range reduction (usually get 80mi + to VLBW from 100%). Never left more than an hour at 100% or at below VLBW. Max temp for SV is 7 bars on a few occasions, never more than a few hrs at 7 bars. S max is 6 bars. Usual temps at 5 bars more than 90% of time.
 
Looks like my battery has started to turn around also. I wish we knew what the BMS was really doing. I thought that I had lost ~6% capacity over 7 months of ownership. Now it looks like I'm down ~3%.

Code:
Date       Ahr      %CAP    %SOC    Health      GIDS    V Max   mv Delta   Max Batt Temp F     Total Miles
6/24/13   66.850  101.905  97.100                      4.135    10.000     80.000
7/22/13   67.050  102.210  96.900    103.090    283    4.125     9.000     79.500
8/1/13    66.150  100.838  97.100    101.400    284    4.128     9.000     78.800               4960
8/12/13   65.810  100.320  96.800    100.760    283    4.128    12.000     68.900               5443 
8/28/13   65.220   99.421  97.100     99.760    283    4.134     9.000     75.200               6166
9/6/13    65.370   99.649  96.800     99.960    283    4.113    11.000     67.100               6415
9/18/13   65.090   99.223  97.000     99.590    283    4.125    14.000     58.100               6879
9/26/13   63.580   96.921  96.700     97.610    274    4.132    12.000     63.900               7223
9/27/13   64.090   97.698  97.000     98.270    278    4.121    10.000     70.000               7274
10/10/13  63.020   96.067  96.800     96.870    272    4.130    11.000     56.500               7706
10/23/13  64.990   99.070  96.900     99.460    282    4.128     9.000     59.200               8303
 
Recently, ambiant temperature has dropped below freezing at night for the first time since I've had my LEAF and Ahr and Health have "frozen" with it.

Normally, I drop about 0.30 of Ahr and 0.5% of health daily between recharges to 100%, when I gain most of it back.

However, since Saturday Ahr and Health have not budged an inch. 29-34F ambiant at night, 30-39F the day. Battery temperature 36F-48F during this period.
 
Just adding more data.

Ahr bounces between 60.75 and 61.6. Health bounces between 93.32% and 95%. I bought on 9/30, manufactured 9/1 (or about, early Sept). My only data point with full gids was 1 month later, when I had 266 GIDS at 100% charge, 61.42Ahr, and 94.65% health.

Boy is it weird seeing that health number lower than expected, and Ahr low! I know it's due to a battery change, but I wish I had a leaf battery app that reflected MY battery.
 
goaliepride said:
I know it's due to a battery change, but I wish I had a leaf battery app that reflected MY battery.

Me too!!
Remember that no one (outside of Nissan) knows what the H-factor (probably mis-named health) actually represents. Even what is called capacity is probably not actual capacity, especially for 2013 Leafs. These numbers are provided by the car's computer and smart programmers on these forums have provided a way for us to get this data, but Nissan doesn't tell us what the numbers actually mean. All reverse engineered.
 
stjohnh said:
goaliepride said:
I know it's due to a battery change, but I wish I had a leaf battery app that reflected MY battery.

Me too!!
Remember that no one (outside of Nissan) knows what the H-factor (probably mis-named health) actually represents. Even what is called capacity is probably not actual capacity, especially for 2013 Leafs. These numbers are provided by the car's computer and smart programmers on these forums have provided a way for us to get this data, but Nissan doesn't tell us what the numbers actually mean. All reverse engineered.

For sure =)
 
stjohnh said:
goaliepride said:
I know it's due to a battery change, but I wish I had a leaf battery app that reflected MY battery.

Me too!!
Remember that no one (outside of Nissan) knows what the H-factor (probably mis-named health) actually represents. Even what is called capacity is probably not actual capacity, especially for 2013 Leafs. These numbers are provided by the car's computer and smart programmers on these forums have provided a way for us to get this data, but Nissan doesn't tell us what the numbers actually mean. All reverse engineered.

And even these capacity numbers can not directly reflect battery "degradation", but can only report (very inaccurately, obviously) the kWh storage in your battery your LBC is currently allowing you to access between any low SOC point and "100%".

Which is why the obsessive preoccupation by some with these numbers is, IMO, unwarranted.

If you really want to know what your actual present available battery capacity is, do a discharge (range) test, or a recharge (metered or timed) test.

Both of these have their own inherent uncertainties, but both likely far less inaccurate than the LBC reports.
 
edatoakrun said:
And even these capacity numbers can not directly reflect battery "degradation", but can only report (very inaccurately, obviously) the kWh storage in your battery your LBC is currently allowing you to access between any low SOC point and "100%".

Which is why the obsessive preoccupation by some with these numbers is, IMO, unwarranted.
Well, Nissan has said that the previous firmware gave inaccurate (too pessimistic) numbers and that was what the P3227 update addresses. The number tells you when Nissan would replace your battery under warranty. It is hard for me to believe that Nissan would produce an update which would grossly over estimate capacity loss, thus forcing them to provide more warranty replacements. If you want to believe that is what they are doing that is up to you.
 
Stoaty said:
edatoakrun said:
And even these capacity numbers can not directly reflect battery "degradation", but can only report (very inaccurately, obviously) the kWh storage in your battery your LBC is currently allowing you to access between any low SOC point and "100%".

Which is why the obsessive preoccupation by some with these numbers is, IMO, unwarranted.
Well, Nissan has said that the previous firmware gave inaccurate (too pessimistic) numbers and that was what the P3227 update addresses. The number tells you when Nissan would replace your battery under warranty. It is hard for me to believe that Nissan would produce an update which would grossly over estimate capacity loss, thus forcing them to provide more warranty replacements. If you want to believe that is what they are doing that is up to you.

Actually, I believe that LEAF drivers who were briefed in Phoenix have stated that Nissan has recently changed its story, and now says pre-P3277 reports could understate or overstate (being either optimistic or pessimistic) capacity by up to 10%, and that post p3227 (and all 2013 LEAFs) will now only report only pessimistically, and within 4% of actual capacity.

But since Nissan has never put any of this in writing, or even ever stated what the "100%"-to-dead available capacity in kWh is for a LEAF, only publically stating that four capacity bars loss is ~ 30% loss of whatever that new available capacity is, I think it is very likely that Nissan will not be overly concerned with warranty costs, and much more likely to be concerned with having any pesky lawsuits answering those questions that it has chosen to avoid answering itself.
 
Very interested to hear if other people are having the same performance from a 2013. After nearly 10k miles I am looking at a SOH value of 99.


Code:
Date       Ahr      %CAP    %SOC  SOH     Hx      GIDS    V Max   mv Delta   Max Batt Temp F     Total Miles
6/24/13   66.850  101.905  97.100                         4.135    10.000     80.000
7/22/13   67.050  102.210  96.900       103.090    283    4.125     9.000     79.500
8/1/13    66.150  100.838  97.100       101.400    284    4.128     9.000     78.800               4960
8/12/13   65.810  100.320  96.800       100.760    283    4.128    12.000     68.900               5443 
8/28/13   65.220   99.421  97.100        99.760    283    4.134     9.000     75.200               6166
9/6/13    65.370   99.649  96.800        99.960    283    4.113    11.000     67.100               6415
9/18/13   65.090   99.223  97.000        99.590    283    4.125    14.000     58.100               6879
9/26/13   63.580   96.921  96.700        97.610    274    4.132    12.000     63.900               7223
9/27/13   64.090   97.698  97.000        98.270    278    4.121    10.000     70.000               7274
10/10/13  63.020   96.067  96.800        96.870    272    4.130    11.000     56.500               7706
10/23/13  64.990   99.070  96.900        99.460    282    4.128     9.000     59.200               8303
11/26/13  64.900   98.933  97.200  99.0  99.340    281    4.130    11.000     50.500               9575
 
bradbissell said:
Very interested to hear if other people are having the same performance from a 2013. After nearly 10k miles I am looking at a SOH value of 99.


Code:
Date       Ahr      %CAP    %SOC  SOH     Hx      GIDS    V Max   mv Delta   Max Batt Temp F     Total Miles
6/24/13   66.850  101.905  97.100                         4.135    10.000     80.000
7/22/13   67.050  102.210  96.900       103.090    283    4.125     9.000     79.500
8/1/13    66.150  100.838  97.100       101.400    284    4.128     9.000     78.800               4960
8/12/13   65.810  100.320  96.800       100.760    283    4.128    12.000     68.900               5443 
8/28/13   65.220   99.421  97.100        99.760    283    4.134     9.000     75.200               6166
9/6/13    65.370   99.649  96.800        99.960    283    4.113    11.000     67.100               6415
9/18/13   65.090   99.223  97.000        99.590    283    4.125    14.000     58.100               6879
9/26/13   63.580   96.921  96.700        97.610    274    4.132    12.000     63.900               7223
9/27/13   64.090   97.698  97.000        98.270    278    4.121    10.000     70.000               7274
10/10/13  63.020   96.067  96.800        96.870    272    4.130    11.000     56.500               7706
10/23/13  64.990   99.070  96.900        99.460    282    4.128     9.000     59.200               8303
11/26/13  64.900   98.933  97.200  99.0  99.340    281    4.130    11.000     50.500               9575

Looks like you have one of the last of the Japanese Leafs, those made May 2013 or later I think are all made in Smyrna, and those are the ones that have new capacities in the 59-61 range.
 
stjohnh said:
Looks like you have one of the last of the Japanese Leafs, those made May 2013 or later I think are all made in Smyrna, and those are the ones that have new capacities in the 59-61 range.

What are your current readings, stjohnh?

After 4700 miles my Smryna LEAF is showing

AHr: 61.40 (Low in October of 60.36, Delivered with 61.x, High of 63.99 three weeks into ownership)
Hx: 94.59% (Low 93.03%, Delivered 95.x%, High 97.89%)
SOH: 93%
Gids @ 100%: 267 (Low 263, Delivered 264, High 276)

Edit: fwiw, I didn't notice any problems with range, at least before temps dropped and I had to change tires.


Manufactured in June, so this is my first winter with the LEAF. From what I read here, I expected AHr and Hx to creep up over the Winter, but they've been frozen for a month, ever since the temperature has dropped to the upper 30s or below.

Nov 1: AHr 61.26, Hx 94.32%. Then no change until after a charge to 100% on Nov 7: AHr 61.40, Hx 94.60%. Since then AHr has not changed and Hx has moved once, by a whopping 0.01%.
 
Berlino said:
stjohnh said:
Looks like you have one of the last of the Japanese Leafs, those made May 2013 or later I think are all made in Smyrna, and those are the ones that have new capacities in the 59-61 range.

What are your current readings, stjohnh?
%.

S Has 59.42. Was 60.40 when first measured in July
SV Has 61.40. Was 60.30 in July

I seriously doubt that the better current reading in the SV is due to the battery actually gaining capacity. Much more likely is that these numbers just don't acurrately reflect real capacity.
 
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