User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9469
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:33 pm

FairwoodRed wrote:Far as I know, I'm the second to lose a bar in Washington state, and at roughly half the mileage as TaylorSFguy. He lives just a few miles from me.


So that maybe makes one of you an outlier. Either his pack has done extremely well or your pack has done quite badly.

"A few miles" here can easily mean a difference of 10-15 degrees, due to the numerous and varied micro-climates we have. Does the same hold true where you are or is it much the same throughout the area?
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 70,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

User avatar
dgpcolorado
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Dec 2011
Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:06 pm

mwalsh wrote:So that maybe makes one of you an outlier. Either his pack has done extremely well or your pack has done quite badly...
How do you figure? They both lost the first Capacity Bar at about two years. If battery cycling were important TaylorSFguy would have lost his sooner than that; he is a good test case for extreme cycling. Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.
Blue 2012 SV Dec 2011 to Feb 2016
CPO 2014 Tesla S60 Mar 2016
One car, no ICE, at last!
Tesla Referral Code

GRA
Posts: 7365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:11 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
mwalsh wrote:So that maybe makes one of you an outlier. Either his pack has done extremely well or your pack has done quite badly...
How do you figure? They both lost the first Capacity Bar at about two years. If battery cycling were important TaylorSFguy would have lost his sooner than that; he is a good test case for extreme cycling. Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.

The main thing these two data points imply to me is that 5 years/80% is unlikely for anyone, but 60k/80% is possible in a mild climate.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:11 pm

cwerdna wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
ChinaDad wrote:Well, I have 12 bars back. I cannot figure out how to attach a photo, really wish I could. My battery is still not charging to the full extent as it did just 6 weeks ago. It charged (using 100% charge) to show 85 miles available in D mode (94 miles in ECO). This could be even worse for me because if my capacity bars stay above 9 there is no special warranty. I have lost between 15 to 20 miles in range!

Do you think there is something else wrong?

Mike


I work just down the street from you (within a couple of miles), if you want a neutral 3rd party to look at it I'd be happy to pull data from your car to see if we can tell what is going on.

Did we ever get to the bottom of this? It's funny how someone claims his capacity bars were at 10, then down to 6 (!) and back to 12 (after the software update) hasn't been heard from in 15 days...


he didn't PM me, I don't know exactly who he is to talk to him in person. Hopefully he is still happy with his leaf after learning some new things about it.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9469
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:37 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.


Exactly. So take heat out of the equation and all you have is time. And there are many more cars than these two in the PNW, including cars delivered earlier than May and June (when TSFG and FR got their cars). If time is the predominant factor, then we should have had a raft of PNW bar losses already. Though I'm still willing to concede that TSFG and FR might both be on the bleeding forward edge.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 70,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

FairwoodRed
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Fairwood, WA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:43 pm

LEAFer, I’m torn on getting the software update. On one hand, Saturday’s are the only chance I have to see a dealer, but I also like to use my weekends for family and fun. On the other hand, I’m beyond my standard warranty and getting things done sooner rather than later means fewer questions from the service writer (I know this update is extended regardless of mileage, but I haven’t found that in writing yet.). Either way, I have to go in for my annual battery check this weekend.

Mrwalsh, There are differences in our areas, but not as much as yours. I am 5.6 miles away as the crow files and we are essentially at the same elevation ~400ft. I fully expect that his temps are no more than 2 degrees different than mine. I’ve had two road trips that ended in a hot battery (one really hot and the other TOO DA** HOT) and I wonder how much of an impact this had. Certainly I do not believe that calendar life alone accounts for it as I have used LEAFbatt to scan 20 or so cars from my local LEAF gathering. Many of those were approaching their 2 year anniversary and some of them still had 99% CAP, albeit with low (10k to 15k) miles.

kovalb
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:37 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Apr 2014
Location: Phoenix

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:59 pm

mwalsh wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:Heat plus time seem to be the biggest factors in battery degradation.


Exactly. So take heat out of the equation and all you have is time. And there are many more cars than these two in the PNW, including cars delivered earlier than May and June (when TSFG and FR got their cars). If time is the predominant factor, then we should have had a raft of PNW bar losses already. Though I'm still willing to concede that TSFG and FR might both be on the bleeding forward edge.

Cycling is a bigger factor than time and likely even bigger than temperature. Battery life is generally specified in terms of how many 0% --> 100% --> 0% cycles they can perform before deterioration reaches some level (usually 70% or 80% remaining capacity). Cycling will be determined in a vehicle by its mileage and energy economy. A car driven hard, fast, and for many miles will cycle much more than one that is driven slow, easy, and with little mileage.
Had six Nissan LEAFs in five years. Hope to get another.
Retired Nissan Employee (NTCNA-AZ). Opinions expressed here are my own.

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:33 pm

kovalb wrote:Cycling is a bigger factor than time and likely even bigger than temperature...A car driven hard, fast, and for many miles will cycle much more than one that is driven slow, easy, and with little mileage.


Then why can a LEAF in Seattle be driven over 70,000 miles in 2 years before losing its first capacity bar, but LEAFs in Phoenix with less than 10,000 miles lose the 1st capacity bar in less than 12 months?
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9469
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:17 pm

shrink wrote:Then why can a LEAF in Seattle be driven over 70,000 miles in 2 years before losing its first capacity bar, but LEAFs in Phoenix with less than 10,000 miles lose the 1st capacity bar in less than 12 months?


I agree. Maybe in controlled environments cycling is the leading factor. But in the real world, it's clear that other factors trump cycling.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 70,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7091
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:31 am

LEAFfan wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
cwerdna wrote:an AZ friend's occasional FB posts about his temps, I don't think we're anywhere near as bad as Phoenicians esp. since it almost always cools down at night here.

He lives near Phoenix and here are some examples:
On June 18, 2012, he posted a screenshot of 111 F temp for Phoenix from a weather app.
On July 10th, he posted a 104 F pic from his car and said at 9:40 pm, it's still over 100 F.
On Aug 5, 2011, he posted a pic of his car showing 100 F at 9:17 pm.
On July 2, 2011, he posts a pic of his car showing 117 F.

The above Phoenician Facebook friend posted some temps yesterday.

On June 28, 2013, he posted a pic of his Prius showing it's 117 F outside at 4:07 pm (Pacific time, I believe).
On the same day, at 10:26 pm, he posted his Prius showing it's still 100 F outside at 10:15 pm, saying it was 2.5 hours after sunset. Also said it "Was still 108° in Downtown Phoenix when we left there at around 9:40pm!"

Crazy!


Broke a temp record today...at 1:21PM it hit 118F at PHX Sky Harbor. It could go higher later.

On this note, I noticed that per Google's weather, at ~midnight Pacific time, it says it's 102 F in Phoenix! Yow!

Hope Andy Palmer makes a trip to Phoenix in this summer, as folks at the Phoenix meeting suggested.

Side note: For those unfamiliar w/the micro-climates in the SF Bay Area, the local news is forecasting these temps for Tuesday, as an example:
San Jose: 100 F
SF: 79 F (kinda warm for them, actually)
Half Moon Bay: 69 F
Dublin: 103 F
Livermore: 105 F
Santa Cruz: 79 F

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Return to “Problems / Troubleshooting”